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Carleton in Northfield vs. Tufts. Pros and cons anyone? Basically, from what I've seen, I really like the atmosphere at both schools. However, I really really don't like Northfield. Grew up in the midwest, really want to get out. and northfield embodies the hickiest midwest ever. But carleton supposedly has really great teachers and seems to be more academically well-rounded.. does anyone know if this is a correct assumption? I plan on going into bio if that helps. but i really want a strong education overall. by the way, does anyone know about tuft's child psychology major?

By Heyheyhoho (Heyheyhoho) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 03:40 pm: Edit

I know a lot about Carleton College, and I have a few friends who are applying to Tufts. They seem radically different. Both are great schools, while Carleton is probably slightly better academically. Tufts has a much more traditionally-minded, East-coast student body. Everyone I know who has visited/is applying fits is slightly "jappy." Very bright kids, but not nearly as politically, intellectually aware as at Carleton. Carleton is really amazing. Beautiful campus, great rural location that isn't too far away from the cities, amazing social scene, fun and kinda nerdy students. Carleton is all around very strong. It is one of the top liberal arts colleges for the sciences. While Tufts is a university, it is in many ways closer to a LAC. It competes in the NESCAC. Carleton is much more community-oriented because of its small size and location. Tufts probably has what most people would consider a better location, but not for me. If you're originally from the midwest, Tufts might be more appealing. In terms of admissions, Tufts is probably slightly harder to get into, but Carleton students have better numbers, qualifications. This is because most students don't apply to Carleton if they aren't interested as it holds a unique place as the premier midwestern liberal arts college. Tufts is similar to many other private medium-sized universities on the East-coast. It might be easier for you to gain admission to Tufts because they want to increase regional diversity.

By Tennizpro06 (Tennizpro06) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 12:30 am: Edit

thanks that was really helpful. Would you say that academically, or maybe specifically in bio as a major (or other sciences), that the two are very different? Carleton and Tufts seem to be near perfect fits for me.. despite the two being pretty different I don't know.. I really like both and they both seem like great matches.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 12:36 am: Edit

If I can help, let me know. I am a Tufts Alum and I majored in what used to be called Child Study which is now called Child Development, and I loved it. Bio is also a strong major there. I have a daughter applying to Tufts cause she loves it like you do. We just returned about ten days ago from her second visit there. Let me know what you what to find out or what about Child Study.
Susan

By Tennizpro06 (Tennizpro06) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 01:17 pm: Edit

if i wanted to be a doctor in the future, would majoring in Child Development be a good idea? Or perhaps, double majoring in that and bio? I really like children and have strongly thought about being a pediatrician. I'm also extremely interested in psychology and biology.

Also, I hear that Tufts doesn't like to give merit scholarship much.. do you know if this is true?

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 02:52 pm: Edit

Tennizpro:
I'm a Tufts alumna, (EN 03), so a few things:
1. The psych department is awesome, as are bio, chem, pre-med program, etc.
2. Tufts does not give any merit aid, save a bit to National Merit Scholars. It is all need-based.
3. One of my friends majored in CD and is applying to med schools now; she wants to be a pediatrician as well. Other friends who are going into medicine majored in biology, psychology, chemistry, a bio/philosophy person, some biology/classics double majors, and similar.

By Tennizpro06 (Tennizpro06) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 05:30 pm: Edit

aries-about how much do you think i'll end up having to pay then? Granted I'll be a national merit finalist and we earn about $90 thous.I really like Tufts.. but we'd be instate for Wisconsin, a school that's close in ranking. However, I absolutely love Tufts. My parents just might not be willing to pay for something thats way more expensive.

By Haon (Haon) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 09:39 pm: Edit

Academically, Carleton is the superior school of the two. For sciences, it is significantly superior. I'd say Carleton is actually slightly harder to get into than Tufts--it is SIGNIFICANTLY more self-selecting (despite its higher acceptance rates).
Carleton is oen of the most academic schools in the country and extremely friendly. Tufts is a good school in a great area...unfortunately it has a bit of a reputation as a school for ivy rejects. Carleton has a lot of UChicago/Swarthmore overlap, that's kind of the type of student that goes to Carleton.

By Clickspring (Clickspring) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 11:09 pm: Edit

Can you handle a school of 700 people in a small town in northern Minnesota? Think about how small and isolated that is! You should consider the differences in environment. Boston is way better, so choose Tufts

By Tennizpro06 (Tennizpro06) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 11:48 pm: Edit

what's so bad about ivy school rejects? just wondering. anyone else on Tufts vs Carleton's science depts?

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 11:53 pm: Edit

Regarding Carleton vs. Tufts: both liberal arts schools, one in Minnesota, the other in Boston along with some 250 other colleges nearby. One is about five times the size of the other... academically, both are excellent. It also depends on what you want for biology - if you want research, Tufts would be better; I know little about Carleton, but there are areas that it might be better for. Tufts does a general biology degree (not environmental, neurological, etc). How does Carleton do their biology department?

I do not know about the specifics of Carleton's acceptances, but Tufts (in 1999, and it has gotten more difficult since) was the 12th hardest university to get into... behind HYSPM, CalTech, Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, and Duke... meaning it was EASIER to get into UPenn, UChicago, Northwestern, etc.

It is nearly impossible to say that ANY school is significantly superiour to Tufts for sciences - as, quite simply, for bio and chem, Tufts is among the best. My friends in those departments are getting Ph.Ds or MDs at places like MIT, Stanford, UCal Berkeley, Yale, Caltech, Harvard, you name it. Tufts makes you work very hard, and the courses are extremely challenging and demanding.

Frankly, Haon, I do not understand why you consistently trash Tufts as a university. By almost any standard, it is amazing: top child development, international relations, and pre-med progammes in the country; excellent English and classics; phenomenal research opportunites, within the undergrad AND graduate schools (so every year, undergrads do research with the med school, vet school, Fletcher law and diplomacy, etc)... the list goes on. In fact, Tufts has a higher percentage (99%) of faculty with Ph.Ds or terminal degrees in their field than Williams does (95%). If there is a valid reason for your disregard of Tufts, please let us know... but your posts, which could be informative, are phenomenally unconstructive due to your inherent biases. Also, you know remarkable little about Tufts... you once said that Williams' acceptance rates to med school were far higher, but Tufts is near 100% for its students going to med school... so "far higher" is impossible. I'm just saying that you really don't know much about the school (or appear to), yet you consistently trash it, which does not make for helpful posting.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 11:58 pm: Edit

Tennizpro:
Tufts uses the College Scholarship Service (CSS) for calculating financial aid, not the FAFSA. If you fill that out, you can figure out how much you will have to pay. Financial aid officers are assigned according to last name, so you can actually call up the fin. aid office and speak with the person who would handle your aid package, and he can walk you through the process of figuring out about how much you'll have to pay.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 12:27 am: Edit

This whole "Tufts is for Ivy rejects" just does not hold water to me. For one, many applicants to Tufts are Early Decision so this is their first choice school. It was for me, as my husband. I have a relative who just told me his grandson is at Tufts and chose it over his admittance to Penn. I interview applicants for Tufts and many have this school as their first choice. I have a daughter applying to Tufts at the moment who feels it is a first/top choice for her as well and she has placed it above a few Ivies on her list of schools. She just visited for a second time (and met Ariesathena!!) and spent a night in the dorms and spoke to numerous students and asked this very question I am reading on this board.....was Tufts a fall back school for you or like for rejects from Ivies? Every single person said that is absolutely not the case and in fact, many had the school as their first choice.

By the way, with Tufts tough acceptance rate (around 22%), it surely cannot be anybody's safety school or fall back option.

And Aries answered your questions well. No merit aid. Also, child development majors certainly can go on to become pediatricians and you just have to take the necessary science courses in undergraduate school. I loved the Child Study department and in fact, that was a big attraction to me when I chose the school originally. My hubby majored in chemistry there and is a certain kind of doctor now. I went on to Harvard for graduate school. I loved Tufts and recommend the school highly to others.
Susan

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 01:35 am: Edit

Just for the sake of accuracy - note that Carleton has 1900 students, not 700.

Carleton, Tufts & UW-Madison are three fine schools with excellent biology and psychology departments, but very different. The websites should tell you much of what you need to know about academic departments and programs, but review of several college guides and ideally, visits would help with the rest of the info.

Regarding aid - the calculator at www.finaid.com should give you a ballpark picture of what Carleton and Tufts might offer based on financial need.

By Haon (Haon) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 05:52 pm: Edit

You misinterpret my comments. I have never trashed Tufts. Tufts is a school that many people have an extremely over-inflated idea of (especially alumni). I go to a school that does not have almost ANY overlap with Tufts, and doesn't compete with Tufts in any forums other than athletic contests. I am most definitely NOT biased against Tufts.

I think Tufts is an excellent school...I said it had the reputation for being a school for Ivy Rejects...whether or not it actually is a school for Ivy rejects is disputable.

As for its selectivity, Tufts was ranked the 28th most selective University in the country by USNWR this past year. Carleton was ranked the 13th most selective College in the country. Tufts has a slightly lower acceptance rate and Carleton has a slightly higher SAT median. I believe Carleton has a higher yield but I can't find any numbers on that and you may correct me if I'm wrong.

Sooziet--'02 acceptance rates were 28% for Tufts.

Ariesthena--post your link for Tuft's medical school acceptance rates...I've emailed Tufts and looked on their website and haven't been able to find anything.

Reputation-wise, Carleton is considered a more "academic" school.

By Tennizpro06 (Tennizpro06) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Again, why would it be bad if a school contained so-called "ivy school rejects?"

tufts was 12th in 1999? It's dropped a lot! It's like 18th this year.. why the drop?

Sooviet-can you tell me a bit more about this department?

For everyone who loved Tufts, was there something particular that you just really liked about it? Or was it just this feel-good place?

Also, I've been considering Tufts a match to match-reach. Can you please evaluate my stats?
I'll send it through email. It's in resume format although I dont' inted on sending a resume. I had to make one for school and I'm only in the middle of making my activity list. Thanks!

By Haon (Haon) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 11:58 pm: Edit

Tennizpro06 -- I think Tufts is 28th now actually.

If Tufts actually did contain a large number of ivy school rejects this wouldn't be a good thing. This would mean that a large number of Tufts students are at Tufts, not becuase they want to be, but because they didn't get into their first (or second or third) choice in a school...if reputation is correct this leads to a certain amount of bitterness among Tufts' students.

Also, it is important to coinsider in choosing a school that the students attending the school are as or more important than the teachers at the school. You spend significantly more time and interact more with the students. Thus, a school filled with bitter, not-quite "ivy-level" students *may* not be ideal. The quality of the student body affects the education you receive at the school.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 12:24 am: Edit

2002 acceptance rates (class of 2006) were 19.8% for liberal arts!! First time it went below 20%... which was cool. Engineering is higher but self-selecting, so that brought the total undergraduate average up to 22%.

When I find the med school acceptance rates, I'll send them... anecdotally, my friends are all going to great schools, where they want to go. I know for law school that the acceptance rate is pretty high - while it is 62% overall nationally, it's some 85% for Tufts. Now, this of course depends on the number of schools applied to and which ones you are looking at... but still, not bad.

Regarding USNEWS: Tufts is the 12th most selective college, while it is ranked 28th overall. Very different things, beware of confusing them. Also, the 18th is the ranking of how much you want to go to a school... meaning if you are accepted to #17 and #18, you'll probably go to 17. Different from most selective and hardest admissions.

Regarding Tufts, Ivies, etc... of every 10 students who get into MIT and Tufts, 8 go to MIT and 2 to Tufts. It's 9 and 1 for Harvard... not sure for others. I know someone who got into Cornell and went to Tufts, just liked it better... know two people who got into Williams, saw each other at some open house, and then were shocked to see that they both went to Tufts instead. It's hard to quantify.

I will refer you to SoozieVT's posts regarding her D and Tufts... D asked around when she was there, getting opinions on the school... and everyone said that they LOVED it there. It's a universal theme for people who actually spend time at the school and really interact. Contrary to what you might think, the people are the best part of Tufts - energetic, intelligent, caring, and interested in everything. Honestly, spend some time there before you trash it on repuation... because you can't be at Tufts for very long and get any idea of the bitter students.

Finally, "not quite Ivy-level" students... personally, I think that with my 1550 SATs (first time), top 3% of class, and ten varsity letters, that I could have gone Ivy if I wanted to... considering that the people I know who went to Cornell, UPenn, Dartmouth didn't have better stats, it's entirely possible... I just didn't apply and didn't want to go there... The people at Tufts are certainly Ivy-caliber, but there isn't really much Ivy overlap with a school like Tufts... some Cornell, some Harvard, but that's it... some UPenn, and a bunch of UPenn-ers are Tufts rejects. Sigh.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 12:50 am: Edit

Haon, for one thing, I am not sure why you care so much about this topic as you do not attend either school, correct? In any case, it is apples to oranges to give what numerical order one college has in selectivity in UNIVERSITY rankings and compare it to another's place on a list of COLLEGE rankings.

The admit rate alone speaks a bit to selectivity and Tufts' rate is lower (more selective). I do not know where you got the admit rate of 28% but last year I believe it was 22% and I could go look it up in all the info. I have as I am an alumni interviewer so have plenty of info. on that but it is upstairs and I am not getting it right now but I am almost positive I am correct or within a percentage point.

Reputation about this Ivy reject thing is simply that....a reputation or rumor, not a fact. All I know is that so many people I have met who attend Tufts or who went there had Tufts as their FIRST choice. They get plenty of ED apps as well. Like I said, I even know some who chose this school OVER their Ivy admittance. My own daughter has this school higher on her list of preferences than some Ivies on her list of schools she is applying to. You see, not everyone is into prestige. She loved what she saw at Tufts and placed it as one of her first choices. The name factor means nothing to her in a college.....it is finding the school that suits her interests. I could care less if she ever applied to Tufts. The school appeared on her preliminary list that appealed to her after perusing college guide books and she visited and the rest is history. She just made her second visit there in fact. Because of posts with innuendo like yours, she asked this very issue of numerous kids on campus and all said totally not true. None were there cause of being rejected at Ivy. Tufts is not a safety school by ANY means. It is harder to get into than some Ivies like Penn. I interviewed a valedictorian from my area who got denied at Tufts but was admitted to Brown. Tufts is tough to get into. The student body is made up of quite accomplished motivated students. My own child who loves the school is valedictorian and her credentials are nothing to sneeze about. So, she likes Tufts, and I am sure there are many like her who are attracted to the school, not as a school on their "reject" pile. It just may not appeal to you, which is totally fine of course. But do not generalize how others view the school.

Tennizpro...I really do not want to do a stats evaluation of you ("what are my chances") online. I do not feel from the little you could share here that I could give it a fair shot. If you are so inclined, I recommend you get a stats evaluation done by the counselors at College Confidential who will take a much fuller picture of you before evaluating your chances. I think I have given you some feedback in the past on these forums, if I recall.

As far as the Eliot Pearson Dept. of Child Study....I absolutely loved it and it was a significant attribute about Tufts that attracted me. It is a fairly unique department and is very well known in the field. It deals with all aspects of young children.....developmentally, educationally, you name it. It can be the background to a wide variety of careers related to children. There is a wonderful laboratory school on campus. A lot of coursework is hands-on. You can start taking courses in this area beginning freshman year. There are numerous internship opportunities. I went on to graduate school in education (at Harvard) but you could go onto medical school or law school with this background as well.

Other things I loved at Tufts include the location.....ideal in my view. You get this lovely college campus, yet can walk to commercial services down the road, or even apartments off campus (residential area) and can hop on a bus or the T and be in Harvard Square in less than ten minutes, and all of Boston beyond, a great area to spend your college years. The size of the student body is what I wanted.....you can walk around and know lots of the people but still meet some new people. The class sizes are small. I loved being around very bright and motivated students. Another thing is that the student body is very diverse, from all over the world. The school values study abroad highly. I had hoped to do that as a junior but got married after my soph year (very rare even in my generation) and did not go abroad but lived in Cambridge. There is plenty to do on campus activity-wise, but you cannot get bored for four years with Boston in your backyard. I liked being in New England, and near (somewhat) to skiing. The school has the experimental college which has numerous offerings that are unique and not based on college departments. Most of all, everyone I have ever met on campus all seem to speak of their love for the college. My daughter met so many kids there last week who all spoke extremely positively of their experiences there. So, we have not run into any unhappy campers! Those are some things in a nutshell. What appeals to you about Tufts and have you visited?
Susan

By Metz (Metz) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 01:19 am: Edit

Hi. I'm a senior who is probably going to apply to Tufts. I visited the campus a few weeks ago. I have a few impressions of the school and was wondering if the Tufts alumni on this board can tell me what they think.

The good: Of all the schools I visited (which included everything from BU to Columbia) it seemed as if Tufts had the best pure academics: small classes, a good TA system, good classes, accredited teachers, fair amount of work etc. Another thing I liked was the fact that it seemed like there was a lot to do on campus plus you are 15 minutes away from Harvard Square.

The bad: I hated my tour guide. She was this annoying giddy girl who seemed extremly out of touch with everyone else. When the tour was over, everyone agreed they wanted to kill her. She avoided questions about how tough it was to get housing after freshman year and never took us to see a dorm. She spent 1/2 the time talking about theater (something SHE was itnerested in) even though only ONE person in the group had any interest in it. This led me to think a few things: How the hell could Tufts pick THIS person to represent their school? When a group of 20 people all decide how annoying she is, there is something wrong. Basically, I'm wondering if she was just a bad apple or if she represents the average student.

If possible, can any of you alumni tell me your thoughts on my impression of the school. Also, a few other questions:
What was your favorite part of Tufts?
What was your least favorite part of Tufts?
How is the dorm situation? The fact that the tour guide kept avoiding the issue made be a bit worried.
How would you rate the students as a whole in respect to how involved they are with their work? Is it more like an MIT where everyone is studying nonstop or like a Northwestern where the students seem to know how to have fun or is it somewhere in the middle?
And last of all, is the food as good as people say it is?

Sorry. I know this is a LOT. But I would very much appreciate any of your thoughts. Thanks a lot.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 02:02 am: Edit

I think Ariesathena would be best to answer a lot of your questions cause she just graduated from Tufts while I am ancient ;-).

In general, I already mentioned some things that drew me to Tufts in a post above. Some were the diversity of the kids, the smart academically motivated student body, the location, the size, my major (child study), value of study abroad, the campus itself, all of Boston, being in New England (was from Philly), the teachers, etc. I really did not have a least favorite aspect. I truly liked just about everything about the school. It was my first choice and I was so glad once I went there too.

I can understand how you can be affected by a tour guide at a college. But I want to caution you that this is JUST ONE person. Unfortunately she was the guide. When we visit a school, my daughter randomly goes up to kids to ask them about the school, not just the person who was hired to represent the school on these visit things. Also she stayed overnight in a dorm this last time and met many more kids. As far as seeing a dorm, I admit the tour guide did not do that when we went last year either. But I have visited nine colleges and only one tour showed us inside a dorm, just one!! So the majority do not and I actually think that stinks cause dorm life is a big part of going to a college. So, what my daughter does on campus visits is to stand outside a dorm and stop someone who is entering and explain she is a high schooler looking to go to the college (they once did that too!) and wondered if they would mind letting her see their room. Every single person she has asked has said YES (they only caution us that it is messy and I say I am not gonna tell their mom!). So, my daughter has seen rooms in a wide variety of dorms on each campus. It is important to not just see one but a variety of set ups. Also when she goes into dorms, she ends up chatting with the students and thus informally learns a lot about the school from them and these are not the kids who were hired to be cheerleaders for the college as a tour guide is basically. So, it balances it all out. She also goes up to kids in dining halls and asks to chat. School brochures and tours and info. sessions are a good start but not enough in depth of a look at a college.

Aries could reflect better about dorms, dining etc. We have eaten in various places on campus on our visits and yeah the food did seem good. The dorms are a wide variation. Some are older, some newer. Many have traditional doubles, some singles. One dorm, Latin Way, which is new since I went there, had these condo like apartment units that blew my daughter away. The traditional doubles in some dorms were nothing that special. There are some other newish apartment style dorms that were not there when I went. Also living off campus at Tufts is almost like living ON campus cause kids live in apartments in the houses surrounding hte campus cause the campus is not isolated, so they are in walking distance. There are some specialty small houses as part of the dorm system as well. My daughter prefers the suite set up she has seen elsewhere but felt that the dorm situation at Tufts was fine overall, kinda avg, nothing that that special. Rating what the students are like or how immersed in studying....Aries again has gone more recently, but when I went, I really liked meeting smart kids who were not considered "nerds" like they do back in high school. The kids were from all over and a wide variety of types. But I remember people taking schoolwork seriously and it was challenging work but not so hardcore as to not have fun. They work hard but have time and inclination to have fun as well. I was the kind of student who was a very hard worker but I still had time for fun stuff at Tufts. Like we would go to the library to study but then have fun later on...on campus or there is Boston too. While it is not easy at Tufts and you will be challenged, it is not cutthroat in an MIT sort of way but there is fun to be had (though I am sure that is true at MIT, not bashing that fine school) but people talk of the constant work there whereas at Tufts people work hard but make time for fun too. It is a good balance.
Susan

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 11:28 am: Edit

I have to agree with Haon. Carleton is an excellent school, one of the top liberal arts schools in the country in terms of academics, right up there with Swarthmore, Amherst and Williams.

The opportunities Carleton gives its undergraduates are superb. The professors are totally focused on undergraduate education and academics are excellent. Carleton consistently sends students to the top graduate programs in the country. In fact, if you take a look at schools producing the highest percentage of PHd's in the sciences, Carleton is one of the TOP schools in terms of the percentage of students who go on for doctorates right along side schools like Cal Tech, University of Chicago, Swarthmore and Harvey Mudd. (Tufts, by the way, does not appear on any of these lists - doesn't mean it's not a great school of course!) I have a close friend, an astrophysicst, who has taught at Harvard, Princeton, Cornell and Carleton and she raves about Carleton. She says Carleton students were the most engaged and enthusiastic students of any of the schools she has taught at.

Please understand --- this is not a slam at Tufts at all and I don't think Haon meant it as one either - but Carleton is an exceptional school. The OP will have very different experiences at Tufts and Carleton, true, but Carleton's academics can not be slighted. It's up to the OP to decide which school is a better fit.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 11:38 am: Edit

By the way, here are selectivity numbers according to the Atlantic Monthly's most recent selectivity report (November 2003 issue):

Tufts - in 2002, admitted 27 percent of all applicants, 44% of ED candidates. SAT mid-ranges were 1250-1470, 72% of accepted students were in the top 10% of h.s. class. Tufts ranked number 41 (out of 50) on the Atlantic's survey of selectivity.

Carleton - in 2002, accepted 35% of all applicants, 55% of ED. SAT mid-ranges were 1280-1470, Of admitted students, 70% were in the top 10% of their h.s. class. Carleton ranked number 45 on Atlantic's ranking of selectivity.

I think the important number to look at is the SAT mid-ranges and class ranks. Carleton and Tufts' student bodies are very similar in terms of academic levels. Neither school is in the top 10 or top 20 in terms of selectivity, however.

Again, the bottomline: you can get an excellent education at either school...but you will have a very different academic/social experience at either school as well. The key is to decide which experience is a better fit.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 12:09 pm: Edit

I just wish to clarify that in no way do I have a negative thing to say about Carleton and in fact, it sounds like a fantastic school. And I totally agree that the comparison is not needed cause it is all about the right fit for the student. My posts were merely about Tufts, in no relation to Carleton, but in response to what appeared to be a bit of Tufts bashing or inaccuracies or inunendo as to people there being Ivy rejects and so forth. I just tried to provide a personal view of the school as I went there.

Just for the record, the acceptance rate at Tufts in 2002 was 23% overall. This statistic is directly from Tufts, not a second hand source. I receive such data and more from Tufts as I am an Alumni Interviewer. The mid range of SAT scores for admitted students that year was 1260-1490. The average class rank of accepted students was 6%. Ratio of applicants to spaces available in the class was 11:1.

Just for fun I will throw in: Number of applications received ON Dec. 31: 2,371! Percentage of valedictorians admitted: 51%. Percentage of students who ranked in the top three places in their class admitted: 46%. Twentyfive kids with a score of 1600 were admitted. I could go on but I will leave ya with the most important statistic: Rank of Michael, Daniel and Matthew as most popular applicant first names: 1, 2, 3. I am sure that last statistic will convince some to apply, LOL !

I agree that the stats of accepted applicants at both these colleges appear in the same ballpark. So, then it is about investigating a school and seeing which one suits the applicant's needs the best.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Susan,
LOL about the names! Does Tufts have a program to increase name diversity? My son is Greg.

I do wonder where the Atlantic Monthly got their statistics from...just goes to show that you can't always trust published sources.

In any case, Tufts is a great school. Carleton is a great school. Can't go wrong with either!

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Metz:

I absolutely loved Tufts... it was a phenomenal experience. If given the opportunity, I can honestly say I would not have preferred to go elsewhere, knowing what I do now.

So, to answer your questions:

*What was your favorite part of Tufts?
~The people... meeting intelligent, enthusiastic, caring friends... they help you with homework, ask you for help... in organic chem, the famed pre-med hell class, someone came up to me in the library and asked if we could study together... which is so unusual, because orgo at other schools is horribly competitive. That's not to say that it wasn't hellishly hard at Tufts, because it was, it's just that we all helped each other through it.
~Second favourite part: the professors. I still meet up with one from junior year to get coffee and catch up every so often. Even after the class ends, they will invite you to things, talk to you when they see you, email you, whatever. It is not unusual for professors to take the whole class to dinner, or invite them over to their houses for dinner... happened a few times with me while I was at Tufts.

*What was your least favorite part of Tufts?
~Actually relating to the school and not anything personal, that would have to be the living situation. You are guaranteed a room freshman and sophomore year, not junior year, and basically guaranteed housing as a senior. They really fixed thing since I went through, in that they gave us our lottery numbers in March... and if you don't get a good lottery number and have to go off-campus, you pretty much need to find a place to live by January... so we ended up signing a lease before finding out if we could have lived on campus. That situation has improved, though. Lottery numbers are being distributed in November... more students are studying abroad, (I was a junior when 9-11 happened, so very few people went abroad and thus needed to find housing), and they are building a new dorm.

*How is the dorm situation? The fact that the tour guide kept avoiding the issue made be a bit worried.
~She really should not have avoided it... I mean, it is getting better, as they are building a new dorm soon, you can definitely get housing for three years if you want it, and if you want junior year housing, you can probably get it (be an RA, live in a specialty house like the Crafts House or such)... the problem peaked my year, then got better... Res Life is being much more proactive about helping students with housing. Also, the rents in Somerville and Medford used to be low, so tons of students wanted to live off campus, and they had a hard time filling up the dorms. Then, the rents soared (near doubled in about three years), and everyone wanted to live on campus. So Res Life had a hard time adjusting to that... but they really have gotten things straightened out since then. Rents are falling (market correction), so it's not as bad as it used to be. Also, Tufts has Walnut Hill properties, and they have rent-controlled off-campus apartments that you can get if you work at it... it's really cheap and they are good landlords. Whew!

*How would you rate the students as a whole in respect to how involved they are with their work? Is it more like an MIT where everyone is studying nonstop or like a Northwestern where the students seem to know how to have fun or is it somewhere in the middle?
~Involvement with work - to quote my dad, there are three types of people in college: those who work and don't party, those who work and party, and those who don't work and party. The mix at Tufts pretty much favours the middle of those - the work hard/play hard types. Social scene does start on Thursday night for the weekend, mostly because there aren't many Friday classes (so you can often just drag your tired self to a 50 minute class and then call it a day without sabotaging yourself academically). However, Princeton Review in 1999 said that Tufts is professional boot camp school #3... behind JHU and MIT. They do make you work, and the core curriculum is tough... there is no way to gut out of Tufts, in that you are going to have to take advanced classes, even in things like foreign language.

*And last of all, is the food as good as people say it is?
~Yes! You do get sick of it after a while - I'm a vegetarian, so there were fewer options for me. It's always decent, and Dining Services is great about taking suggestions. They have a suggestion board in each dining hall, and if students lobby for more grilled cheese, or coordinating tomato soup and grilled cheese, they will do it. There are two main dining halls, Dewick and Carmichael. Dewick is downhill and has more selection. Carmichael is uphill and does things like make-your-own stir-fry night, where they put out stir-fry ingredients, you get them, and they cook them with whatever sauce, meat, and noodles you want. There is also Belgium waffle night and other things. Hodgdon does take-out for all three meals... continental breakfast, sandwiches for lunch, and sandwiches, Chinese, Mexican, and pasta for dinner. The Chinese is really good! Hodgdon, Dewick, and Carmichael accept meals as payment.

Now, most colleges also do points (using your ID as a debit card). The commons, Hotung, and Brown and Brew accept cash or points for meals. The commons does all three meals - omlettes, bagels, muffins, fruit for breakfast; sandwiches, stir-fry, steak-and-cheese, other assorted food for lunch and dinner. They have Snapple, Tropicana, etc drinks and Doritos, Stacy's, etc. chips. Salad bar as well.

Hotung does lunch and dinner, with antipasto, pizza, subs, phenomenal panini sandwiches, etc.

Brown and Brew does breakfast and lunch. They have the bagel/muffin/croissant (good croissants!) for breakfast; sushi and specialty sandwiches for lunch (tomato, eggplant, etc on foccaccia for example). They also do awesome coffee, tea, and hot chocolate. Open until 1 am.

Your freshman year, you are on the premium meal plan - three meals a day, with brunch and dinner on Sunday. Brunch is excellent - the meal that even upperclassmen go for. Sophomore year, you have to get at least 160 meals/week, and usually students do that and points. You can use points to pay for some restaurant deliveries (after 7 pm, for a pizza place, Chinese, Wing Works, and some other that I don't remember). Phenomenally beneficial when it's 1 am and you want ice cream, don't have cash, and don't want to go out - yes, the pizza place delivers pints of Ben and Jerry's and Haagen Daaz (sp?). Junior and senior year you can do whatever you want with meals.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 05:14 pm: Edit

P.S. In 1999, Tufts was the 12th most selective university in terms of admission. Williams, Amherst, etc. do not count in that, being colleges. It was easier to get into JHU, Northwestern, UPenn, and Georgetown for most students. I seriously doubt that it dropped to anything like 46 or such.

Then again, this just proves Mr. Twain correct about lies and statistics... would be lovely to know on what the #12 and #46 rankings are based.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 05:18 pm: Edit

http://www.tuftsdaily.com/articleDisplay.jsp?a_id=1495

Just for fun. Tufts newspaper's summary of 2007 class.

By Tennizpro06 (Tennizpro06) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 07:46 pm: Edit

***I mean 18th is in terms of ADMISSION DIFFICULTY. It seems theres' been a lot of confusion over this ANyways, I was wondering why it dropped fro 12th to 18th in admissions difficulty.

sooviet-just curious. what did you end up doing with your child development major?

How are the teachers at Tufts? That's very important to me.

Finally, is this pre-med thing some are talking about the combined program you can get into during sophmore year? If not, can you explain how "good" pre-med really is at tufts?

thanks everyone- it seems a lot of peopel are really passionate about tufts!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 07:53 pm: Edit

Thanks for the article Aries. I guess my memory of last year's admit rate being 22% was correct afterall. Not a shoo-in for anyone.
Susan

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:56 am: Edit

To answer your question regarding my major in Child Study and what I did beyond that....

I went to graduate school after 1 1/2 years of teaching in elementary school. I went to the Harvard Graduate School of Education. My focus and interests were in curriculum and staff development. I did an internship to do with staff development and I also wrote a curriculum.

Then, I was a teacher in primary grades for many years. During that period of time, I also taught early childhood education at the community college level at night. Once I had children, I stopped working full time in elementary schools. Since my career goal was never to be a teacher, though I wanted to teach as I not only love it but it is necessary to teach kids if you want to work in staff development or teacher training, I then stopped working full time as a teacher and moved into college teaching. Before that, I forgot to say, while teaching elementary school, I not only taught college on the side but I also became an educational consulant through the state dept. of education and would give workshops and consulations to schools around the state in my specialty areas. So, when I stopped teaching, and had the kids, I worked on and off over the years in a part time capacity teaching college and graduate school courses in education at five different colleges in VT. I also still did the consulting work on an independent basis to schools. I have not done that work in a while. I occasionally substitute teach in elementary school not as a career move but just out of interest. I have recently changed directions moving into the area of college counseling. But a great deal of my time is involved with being a mom.
Susan

By Haon (Haon) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 04:50 pm: Edit

According to USNWR 2004 rankings of best colleges, Tufts had a 27% acceptance rate and was ranked number 28th in the "selectivity rank." Please post a link for your contradicting numbers. While USNWR may not be the most surefire RANKING magazine, they DO provide accurate, unmanipulated numbers. The Atlantic Monthly rankings show that Tufts and Carleton are both similarly selective, and that neither are in the top 40 in selectivity.
If 8/10 students MIT over Tufts and 9/10 students choose Harvard over Tufts then I can actually see where it gets the reputation for being an "ivy league reject" school. Of course there will be students at Tufts that chose Tufts over HYPS or AWS, and I'm sure there are students at Tufts that could have gone to HYPS or AWS had they wanted to, but "some students" one or two students you know doesn't represent a trend. The trend is that people DON'T choose Tufts over Ivies, THUS it has the reputation for being an Ivy league reject school.

Look, all of you Tufts alumns need not get so defensive...I believe Tufts is a great school. I at no point wanted to bash Tufts and I appologize if it seems that I am bashing tufts.

As for the student and hte tour guide--it's regretable that you got a bad tour guide but you shouldn't base your decision regarding Tufts on one person you met at Tufts.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 05:54 pm: Edit

My grandfather is a trustee, so he is privy to the numbers... every year, the "brag sheet" that they send out to alumni gets passed along to me, as does other info... but honestly, the 28th of USNWR is incorrect. The number was 12 in 1999... you are confusing difficulty of getting in (which Susan, being an alumni interviewer, is well aware of) with the USNWR ranking of 28.

The USNWR ranking is ENTIRELY numerical - meaning that they assume a kid with higher SATs and GPA will get in over a kid with either being lower. For example, if student 1 has a 3.9 UW and a 1540, and kid 2 has a 3.8 and a 1450, USNWR assumes that kid 1 is more desirable - while it may be that kid 2 gets in more places as he has athletics, patents, community service, Philips or Horace Mann education while kid 1 is at a lousy school and just happens to take tests well, but doesn't do anything else. However, MANY colleges will take the kid with more extracurriculars or a harder curriculum. Using the data of which schools take which students, you can come up with a rank order of schools - i.e. more students who applied to Tufts and UPenn got into UPenn than into Tufts, so Tufts is 12 while UPenn is 13 - which is what my #12 is based on. Having sat through a mock admissions committee session, I saw how little value Tufts places on things like an extra 10 points on the SAT, while consistent extracurriculars are almost a prerequisite for admission. Also, with some 23% minorities on campus, there is also something Tufts values about that perspective - and before this turns into an AA discussion, I'm just saying that accepting someone with similar or slightly lower stats who is a minority (or poor or otherwise underpriveldged) makes sense for colleges and helps the educational experience, but it does not get reflected in the USNWR stats... which are entirely on the numbers... and if you have any clue about college admissions, you know it is NOT about pure numbers.

Williams is another school that does not work on the numbers - of the four people I know who go or went there, three are outstanding athletes, and one is just so bright he only needed that for admission (applied early as well, which helps). When I say outstanding athletes, I mean varsity as freshmen in high school, recruited by the Williams coaches - and that stuff doesn't show up on the USNWR rankings, but clearly makes Williams a more selective school as they can attract those people (btw, they are all great students - lowest SAT was in the 1300s, and that was for the recruited basketball player).

Regarding acceptance rate - refer to the article in a previous post. USNWR does do things like average the acceptance rates of the past five years (or average the SATs of the past five years), and the 19.8% is for liberal arts... when you factor in engineering, it's much higher (EN is about 27%), but the stats of the engineers are a bit higher - for class of 2003, the average class rank was 9% for LA, 6% for EN, and SATs were higher for EN. (That whole school of engin. being self-selecting.)

You really seem to knock Tufts far too often in your posts... which is disturbing. If you were a student (or better yet, a former student who transferred), it would be understandable, but you really know so little about it... I LOVED my time there, SoozieVT and her hubby LOVED it - and I know I got a great education - so I don't appreciate it being slammed by someone regurgitating useless rumours.

Regarding your hypothesis on the Ivy league reject thing... you're obviously NOT pre-law, as saying that accepted students prefer to go to one school over another does not *prove* that it is a school for people *rejected* from any of the above schools. Tufts was technically bankrupt in 1979 - literally had no money when all was added up. Since then, things have changed - but the university still has very limited funds for financial aid. Simply put, students who are accepted at Harvard, with an endowment about 30 times that of Tufts, or MIT, at some ten times, may go (and I know someone who did go) just because they are offered much more financial aid. Also, MIT and Harvard are exceptional - the numbers for Brown are much closer to Tufts gets half, Brown gets half... similar for UPenn... I know people who prefer Tufts over Cornell, UPenn, or Northwestern.

By Tennizpro06 (Tennizpro06) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 06:16 pm: Edit

sooz-i'm pretty sure i want to dedicate myself to something like pediatrics.. however, what if I end up changing my mind and do like geriatrics or something? Will doing somthing like child development turn out a waste?

By Coureur (Coureur) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 07:36 pm: Edit

No, no, good education is never a waste. Even if you majored in ancient Greek it would not be a waste.

Your medical school and residency will teach you all you need to know about your chosen medical specialty. Don't worry about that at the undergraduate level.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 10:44 pm: Edit

I agree with Coureur above on that issue.

Haon, I do not need to post a link for you. In fact, my info. is not from any online source. As an alumni interviewer, I receive numerous mailings and newsletters regarding admissions each year with these stats included. I think my source is as direct as it gets....the Office of Tufts Admissions. If you wish to doubt those numbers, I really am not bothered by it. I know what they are and I interview students (did today in fact) and I am involved in the process. I am not even sure what your knowledge is of Tufts or why you care about disputing stats on Tufts or rumors about Tufts and all the rest.

Some people are into prestige, some are not. I do not doubt that you know kids who choose Ivy over Tufts if they get admitted. For some, name matters. I can only speak of my own experience (and wish you spoke of YOURS, not rumors), and not only was Tufts my first choice, but my daughter has it as a first choice over three of the Ivy league schools on her list. She does not care about prestige. She likes these particular Ivies that offer what she is looking for but it is about the right fit/match and right now, in the order of her 8 schools, Tufts is above three of the Ivies on her list.
Susan

By Tennizpro06 (Tennizpro06) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 11:14 pm: Edit

Back to the majoring in child development thing then.. if I'm also interested in more "regular" majors such as bio, but just a littmore more interested in say, child development, should i probably go with bio since it'd prrepare me better for med school?

By Haon (Haon) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 11:21 pm: Edit

I completely agree that academics alone do not guarantee admission anywhere. I agree that 10 points on the SAT gives NO advantage to a student, and I also agree that the USNWR selectivity ranking is based purely upon the academic side of the student.

However, it's a fair corrolation to connect the academic quality and acceptance rate of Tufts with its selectivity. Your argument is that Tufts, despite being the 28th most academically seletive in the country, somehow makes up for it by accepting more well-rounded students than those schools ahead of it. Tufts doesn't have a larger %age of special interest students than any of the schools in its peer group.

Please cite some specific ranking/link/evidence that shows that Tufts is the 12th most selective in the country...I'm sure the Tufts' "brag sheet" may say something of the sort, but it's obvious that the Tufts' "brag sheet" is not going to be the most honest ranking of institutions.

USNWR rankings of SAT and acceptance rates are both for the year 2002...even if they did average, it wouldn't be a bad thing--a college isn't going to get significantly better or worse in a 5 year period.

Tufts has some overlap in applicants between the Ivies (we'll discuss MIT and Harvard specifically). Since 17/20 (the vast majority) of students choose MIT or Harvard over Tufts, this means that Tufts loses a large number of its top candidates to MIT and Harvard (it is undeniable that students admitted to MIT and Harvard are top candidates). If Tufts loses a portion of its top candidates to these schools every year to these schools, it has to make up for these applicants somewhere...and thus, it must take the next best it can (students who otherwise would not be admitted to Tufts). These students who would not have been admitted to Tufts otherwise, were, for the majority, rejected from MIT and Harvard (those who applied). Thus, the 17/20 students that Tufts loses to Harvard/MIT are replaced by Harvard/MIT rejects.

Yes, I understand that MIT is not an Ivy and that I only spoke of MIT and Harvard, and not all Ivies, but MIT and Harvard were the only two data sets I was provided with. While all matriculation yields for Tufts vs. Ivy may not be as low as Tufts vs. Harvard or Tufts vs. MIT, it is reasonable to assume (given the Ivy's selectivity as a whole compared to Harvard/MIT) that Tufts has less than a 50% yield against the Ivy league schools for shared candidates. Since HYP most likely have more overlap with Tufts than other Ivies (and are all relatively comparible in selectivity), it is ALSO reasonable to assume that Tufts has somewhere between a 15% and 35% yield against the Ivy League schools. This means that of the shared applicants between Tufts and Ivies, Tufts loses approximately 4 out of every 5. There are obviously a very large amount of students who apply to both Tufts AND Ivies, and as 4/5 of those admitted to both Tufts and ANY Ivy choose the Ivy over Tufts, Tufts must accept a significant amount of students that they would otherwies not accept (if they did not have to compete against the Ivies). A significant amount of these students were not admitted to an Ivy league school leaving you with a significant amount of students at Tufts every year who were rejected from Ivies, ie, "ivy rejects."

Tufts sees this more than other schools of its caliber, not because it is an inferior school, but because it has much more overlap, and competes with the Ivies much more than most other schools of its caliber.

There is no shame to going to Tufts...it is a great school...I personally don't think of Tufts as an "ivy reject" school at all--I just wanted to point out where this reputation comes from.

By Pistolpete (Pistolpete) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 11:22 pm: Edit

In my mind, here is what this whole argument boils down to:

1) Statistics (especially when provided to you indirectly by USNWR) are of little significance in determining which school provides the best education.

2) You cannot compare Carleton to Tufts. They are completely different! As has already been stated, what's best is contingent on the individual. If you're like me and want to experience city life, then northern Minnesota should be below just about every other place on your list, except Brantford,Ontario.

3) The fact that some people choose Ivy University over Tufts does not make Tufts an Ivy Reject school. Are you saying that it's a backup? EVEN IF the acceptance rate you mention, Haon, is right, Tufts' acceptance rate is somewhere in the 20s. So would you say that Northwestern, Chicago, JHU, Vandy, Emory, Penn, WUSTL, etc. are backups too? None of those schools would be considered backups, so why is Tufts. My guess is because it is just a few miles away from two of the most prestigious schools in the nation--Harvard and MIT. Perhaps it is in the shadow of those institutions. But whether or not you believe it is an Ivy Reject school, we cannot make any conclusions, because there is no evidence either to support or refute that claim. It is merely supposition.

4) Whether or not Tufts is an Ivy Reject school does not pertain to the question of which school is better. And Tennizpro06, that's for you to decide.

Maybe you can see I'm biased, but since I'm applying to Tufts ED, you'd think I probably would be :P

Susan, I had my alumni interview today (incidentally, my interviewer wasn't you)! I won't mention his name, but he works in Montpelier.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:45 am: Edit

Hey Pete, how coincidental as today was my first Tufts interview with an applicant as well but he came to my home. I am not sure your interviewer but it likely might be the chair of the committee who sends the names out to me and his last name is akin to a holiday ;-). My daughter has not yet been contacted but that is to be expected as her part one went in recently. Her part two is going in tomorrow. I bet you had a great interview! Did you travel to Montpelier for it? I have met kids in that city for interviews as well. Well, you are on your way and my fingers are crossed for all you Vermonters!
Susan

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 11:35 am: Edit

Pete:
I hope your interview went well!! Good luck getting in.

Thank you as well for bringing some sense to this issue.

Regarding majors... I took a second major in classics (and studied ancient Greek!), and it certainly isn't a waste although I won't be going into the classics. The skills you learn in any major are good - psychology, theories of moral development, etc in child development; analysis, word roots, background for western civilization in the classics - it depends so much more on doing something you are interested in and will want to learn more from. If you are going to med school, you only need to take two semesters each of biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics; in fact, anthropology and classics majors tend to have the highest acceptance rates into med school. So, you could certainly do something like child development and pre-med... it does make you a more interesting candidate for med school than someone who is a bio or chem major. I just talked to a woman about law school, and she said it was "boring" in that everyone was a history, poli sci, or English major, so the diversity of background was really lacking... I imagine that med schools are similar and are trying to avoid that.

Now, regarding the Tufts sophomore acceptance plan: there are a ton of combined degree programmes that Tufts has with its various grad schools or affiliates, such as a six-year engineering BS and Fletcher Law and Diplomacy degree, and five-year BA or BS and a degree from the Museum School (MFA affiliate) or similar with New England Conservatory. You get the point. There is an eight-year engineering BS, biomedical engineering MS, and MD programme; there is an early acceptance into med school programme, in which you get a certain GPA, apply after your sophomore year, and commit to going. I believe with that programme, you do NOT have to take the MCATs or take all the required pre-meds, as you pretty much do that stuff over again in med school.

Tufts on pre-med: the courses are really, really tough (the previously mentioned eight). About half the kids drop out of first semester biology, and the ones who are in it have often already taken it. Mostly, if you aren't serious about med school, it's near impossible to make it through. However, if you really want med school, you'll figure it out and the pre-med advisor will help you schedule your classes and such. Now, once you're through the classes, med schools will love you. My friends who are bio or chem majors, or going to med schools, are at Yale, CalTech, UCal Berkeley, and Stanford. (Some of these are Ph.D. programmes in bio or chem.) So the programme, in short, is incredibly difficult but ultimately excellent. One of the best ways of explaining it is to relate a conversation I had with one of my friends (the Child Development major who is now applying to med schools). She was struggling through organic chem, so I asked her why she didn't take it at Harvard, which is supposed to be easier than Tufts. She said that she talked to the pre-med advisor about it, who said that it looks terrible to take orgo anywhere else, as med schools believe you are only doing it because it's easier. I have another friend who took orgo over the summer in FL (her home), and went back up to Tufts for the second semester as she needed to prove that she could handle the Tufts version. It is really tough.

Lunch time... but more later.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 01:07 pm: Edit

I always like Tufts. Did not apply there 30 years ago but then we did not apply to so many schools back then. It was high on my list and still a favorite school for me.
My son did not like Tufts, nor did he care for most of the school on my list and my husband's. All just a matter of taste, I believe.
In our area , Tufts gets categorized with LACs like Williams, Swarthmore, Bowdoin and called a "little ivy" but it is a full fledged university, probably more like Johns Hopkins or Duke. What is the situation there about teaching assistants particularly in the maths and sciences?
I have never visited the school though a lot of kids I know have been accepted and are going there.I always regarded it a top rate school.That it is located so close to Boston also made it highly desirable.
Though I lean heavily towards LACs and Carlton always makes the list for the top choices in this category, I have found that the biggest problem with this school is where it is located. Carlton, Macalester, Grinnell, St Olaf's are all very underrated because of their midwest location. Most east coasters (and we do make up a large block of college students) simply do not want to go to Minnesota. Chicago is about the only Midwest location that the kids want to discuss, maybe Cleveland. When I bring up U of Minn (an excellent flagship universtiy), I get looks like I have 3 heads. Ohio state is ok, Wisconsin is cool but Minnesota is pushing it. Indiana with Purdue and Indiana/Bloomington get a better reception. And I am not sure why this is the case. I only know one child at those schools--at Grinnell. And I know of kids from Minnesota who end up here. but for whatever reason there is just not a lot of interest in many of these Midwest schools.

By Haon (Haon) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 01:45 pm: Edit

1) I wasn't talking about which school provided the best education. I used statistics to demonstrate where Tufts' "Ivy reject" reputation came from.

2) I agree, both are completely different schools...

3) I never said it was a backup. The fact that such an overwhelming majority of people choose Ivies over Tufts DOES make it a school with a significant contingent of kids who weren't accepted into an Ivy league (see my previous post). Acceptance rates do not alone denote selectiveness. Many schools are very self selecting (LACs specifically) and thus have mid to high acceptance rates but still high selectivity. Some of the schools you mentioned COULD be used as safeties for some students. While obviously they are all selective enough that most students couldn't, but there are definitely a certain amount of students that could use, say, Emory and Vandy as safeties. I already stated that Tufts has this reputation, not becuase it's not a good school, but because its in such close proximity to Harvard/MIT, and so many other good schools.

4) I agree...if Tufts was an "ivy reject" school though, it would affect the atmosphere of the school, and should be considered.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Tufts teaching assistant situation: TA's NEVER teach classes. For popular math courses, such as calculus, a professor teaches. All grading on exams is done by professors in the math department. Your homework is graded by "graders" who are kind of like TAs... you never really meet them. Basically, you get credit as long as 60% of it is correct, so the TA affect is negligible. Upper level math courses do not have graders; the professor does all the grading, even homework.

Chemistry is a bit different: the professor teaches the class. Labs are run by TAs, as are recitations. Sometimes you will get different TAs for recitation and lab. This is applicable to general and organic chem. TAs grade homework as well, but professors are always available for office hours and such. In physical chem, or upper-level chems, the professors do the teaching, homework, and grading. P=chem lab was run by TAs, but the professor was always there during the lab as well.

Some classes like intro history have TAs do the homework grading - you have homework each week for some 50 kids, so the TAs do it. They sit in on every class, will teach one class a semester on their academic focus in that area, and grade the exams under the supervision of the professor. Even so, you definitely feel as if the professor is actively involved; she'll hold office hours, hang around after class to answer questions, and be very proactive about getting to know the students. Small and upper-level classes almost never have TAs... someone might grade the homework, but that's it. The focus is on the professor.

By Driver (Driver) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 03:24 pm: Edit

My daughter was rejected by HYP, and is currently an ecstatically happy Williams '07. I would be willing to bet that at least 75% of a typical Williams class wasn't accepted by any of HYP (despite having applied to one or all of them--because they had the requisite stats), and would have faced a very tough decision if they had been accepted there. But that doesn't define Williams as a school for HYP rejects.

Two of my daughter's best friends applied to Tufts ED and are there now. They were, like her, top 10% all honors students in a tough private prep school, NMS finalists, varsity athletes, and talented musicians.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 03:24 pm: Edit

That sounds wonderful! A big issue I have with the universities is the TA situation. Even worse if it is the foreign grad student running the sectional (where the questions are asked and the homework is discussed). Too many are assigned these classes who do not speak or understand much English, do not know the structure of the course, do not want to be teaching, do not understand the culture of a US college and undergraduates, have no idea of what is going to be on the final exams. They grade the papers, run the labs, and have question/answer sessions when they do not know what to do, what is going on. I am very much for LACs for primarily that reason. How does Tufts pay their grad students if they do not take on that load? That was always the sticking point. These guys needed their stipends or fellowships and they needed to do work for them. So they were assigned to the undergrads.
Just read the thread on Williams. That was my absolute favorite school. If I could do it over... But my son was not in the least bit interested. Too isolated, too small, too preppy, he said. Tufts was too organized, the kids were too intense,the atmosphere was all wrong, the kids had 2nd class attitudes--that was his take on Tufts. My husband who picked him up from the vist and also took a quick tour was so impressed with the school and was furious about my son's impressions. They went on to Brown, which my husband hated and my son loved, became his first choice.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 04:26 pm: Edit

LOL to your son not wanting anything similar to his parents ideas... not unusual, not unusual...

At any rate, the Tufts TAs are required to sit in on the classes, and they seem to be a cohesive bunch - they all talk to each other and such. While there are foreign TAs, most have a very solid idea of the educational system. Mostly, I think the professors tell them what they want to see from the homework or whatever - so there is no confusion. I think that they do get paid for running lab sections - but again, that's all determined by the professor. Organic and physical chem had "lab lectures" so you were required to attend a lecture about what is going on in lab before doing the experiment... so they are very organized about their labs, keeping the TAs knowledgable, etc.

Some of them get paid through research grants - the company I work for now is doing an STTR (Small business technology transfer) with my alma mater, in which they share a government grant for research. This grant funds a post-doc full-time. I'm assuming that other TAs are similarly funded... and again, they do have to sit in on the classes, talk to other TAs, and keep in touch with the professors - so there really is no danger of getting a TA who has no clue about what's going on.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Would anyone be interested in separating this thread into different topics... such as the original Carleton/Tufts issue, more broadly, small liberal arts as opposed to larger liberal arts in a university setting... continuing onwards to rankings, how they affect or do not affect the student body... and the child development theme, of that specific area, thoughts on majors for pre-med, what to do with non-professional (i.e. engin., phys, chem or whatever) majors?? This way, we could all contribute where applicable.

By Haon (Haon) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Good idea Ariesathena

And Driver, I don't know how to find statistics on this, but saying that 75% of kids at WIlliams were rejected at HYP is entirely not true. In my entry alone (25 kids), almost all of the 10 or so that applied RD chose Williams over either HY or P. Obviously that proves nothing, but what does prove something is that of common admits, WIlliams is about 4:6 for Harvard and 4.5:5.5 for Yale and Princeton for retention. Williams is about 5:5 for Dartmouth, and wins over 1/2 of common admits for all other Ivies. This means that there are slightly more HYP rejects at Williams than Williams rejects at HYP. AMong the Ivies in general, there are, if anything, more Williams rejects at the Ivies than Ivy rejects at Williams. Williams is not one of hte colleges being discussed in this thread...I just wanted to clear that up. Williams also has no reputation as being an "ivy reject" school to defend, so it's fairly irrelevant anyways. This is partially because Williams has less common admits between Williams vs. Ivies than Tufts does (it's a different type of school).

By Tennizpro06 (Tennizpro06) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 05:46 pm: Edit

Ok. First of all, I really don't whether a school is full of "ivy-school" rejects. I think it's great people have big dreams. My first choice schools are Yale and Brown PLME--two I highly doubt I'd get in. After those comes Harvard.. then it's probably Tufts or Carleton. So, if possible, please focus on some other things..

Does location matter? Yes. But really not to the extent some have made it to be.. I'd like to get out of the midwest, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice academics for it.. only a tiny bit. I always have grad school anyways.

Child Development-is it more psychology or sciencey?

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 05:57 pm: Edit

Driver, my sister in law went to Williams and she got into all the top Ivies but chose Williams.
Susan

Tennispro....I am in a hurry to go to my daughter's soccer banquet but I will try to come back sometime to describe the child development department. By the way, I have meant to ask you if you play tennis (duh) as my daughter does as well and just met with the tennis coach at Tufts. She overlaps with you in that she has also sent apps to Yale and Brown!
Susan

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 11:59 pm: Edit

Child development... http://ase.tufts.edu/epcd/

For the website.

One major orientation is toward the field of child development as a behavioral science. Students who choose this orientation generally view their study of child development as a natural forerunner to graduate work in developmental psychology, child clinical psychology, pediatric psychology, law, psychiatric social work, public policy, and other disciplines that have the health, education, and welfare of children as a primary goal.

A second orientation is that of child development as a basic preparation for careers in education. Students who choose this orientation view the study of child development as a necessary prerequisite for all facets of classroom practice from curriculum to evaluation. The Department of Child Development is unique among teacher education programs in its emphasis on the centrality of child development research and theory for all dimensions of teacher education.

A third orientation takes child development as a starting point for a career in human services or work with children in clinical, pediatric, or other community-based settings, including educational practice with children with special needs. A particular emphasis of the department is promoting of positive youth development.

That hopefully answers your question. I know people who took CD for education (wanting to teach kindergarten), CD as a major prior to med school (wants to be a pediatrician), and someone who just plain loved kids. There are several routes you can go with it. I think child development does satisfy some requirements from the psych department, and there may be cross-registered classes (designated as both psych and CD).

To major in CD, you have to take intro to child development, and two of intellectual development, personal-social, or language development.

By Tennizpro06 (Tennizpro06) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 12:55 am: Edit

sooz-i used to play tennis but had to stop since i developed tennis elbow. (i wasn't too great anyways what other schools are your daughter applying to by the way?

For CD, what if we end up deciding NOT to be a pediatrician.. i know it wouldn't be a complete waste, but should i choose something more general for a major if I'm not sure i wnat to be a pediatrician just yet? ALso, how difficult is this major? WOuld it be possible to double major in this and bio? or this and psych.. or triple major?? So many choices!! Wuold it be more difficult to get into Tufts if I were to apply under CD?

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 01:17 am: Edit

For the questions... it depends on what you want to do if you do not go into medicine. The major is not particulary difficult, so you could double-major if you want... really though, you should explore your options when you are there and then decide on major #2, as you may find yourself interested in something different from CD or bio or psych.

If you are a male, applying CD to a 96% female department may be helpful... but the difference is probably negligable. It will never turn a rejection into an admission... though it could influence a borderline application. Probably most effective if you explain somewhere in the application why CD is of interest to you (cover letters are good for that). It probably will NOT make it more difficult, as I don't think that Tufts necessarily discriminates unless they get 10,000 people who look like potential English majors and don't want to overburden the department.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 11:08 am: Edit

Tennispro...Aries so thoroughly described child development as an academic department and major that I do not need to get into it all again. Suffice it to say that you can major in that field and go into many different directions relating to children, be it law, education, psychology fields, medicine, and so forth. Basically the department gets into many aspects of young children. I did become a teacher from that degree but it is not like a normal education department....as Aries states, it really believes in a solid base in all aspects of child development as necessary for teaching as opposed to "methods" per se.

I do not think you need to be this concerned on the major thing yet. Take some courses, see what you think. If you indeed want to pursue medicine and pediatrics, you could think about either double majoring in child development and bio or minoring in one of these areas. It does not matter a whole lot and there is more than one avenue in undergraduate school that can lead to medicine. Of course you have to take courses that deal with premed like organic chemistry and the like.

As far as what you apply for.....stating an intended major on your app is not seen as a real solid thing. They know kids change their minds a lot once in college. I do not think WHAT you put down is going to affect your admission. But like Aries said, it gives them some indication of interests so that they are not admitting an entire class that all want international relations. I mean they want kids of various interests. I think when you mention an academic interest or career interest, you can talk about how your interest developed and what you have done to explore that area. This often comes up in the interview. Or you might address this in an essay or cover letter. In other words, the intended major should not be some random thing or as some here have written, some obscure major to "help" the chance of admissions. If some kid writes down major in Chinese, there should be something in the background that indicates strengths or activities in languages.

My daughter is applying to Yale, Princeton, Brown, Penn, Tufts, Smith, Connecticut College and Lehigh. She likes all of these schools enough to attend. Where are you applying?
Susan

By Tennizpro06 (Tennizpro06) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 05:16 pm: Edit

No. My problem is that I, FOR SURE, want to be a physician. I do not for sure what to do things related to children.. that part is changeable. I hear bio is a tough major, to tough to doublemajor in?

I'm appling to Yale, Brown (PLME), TUfts, U of Wis, U of MN, Carleton, Amherst, Wellesley, Harvard, um.. some others I can't think of maybe. A couple for combined programs for sure.

By Pistolpete (Pistolpete) on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Haon, your argument is nonlinear. Even if 17/20 of students accepted to Harvard or MIT and Tufts went to the other school, you cannot assume that the majority of students at Tufts also applied to Ivies. There is no data out there to support your point. It may be valid. It may not. Accepting what you assume as fact would be foolish. That's enough of this subject, because anything any of us can say would be merely speculation.

But what you say does indicate that perhaps Tufts' low matriculation rate against Ivys actually improves the student body. If 17/20 of the students chose Harvard or MIT over Tufts, 3/20 ended up at Tufts. And by 3/20 students accepted to both Harvard/MIT and Tufts choosing Tufts, Tufts is filling up spots with students who are not the notorious "prestige whores," thus improving the overall student body. They have students who are there to learn, not to feel special because they can wear Harvard sweaters. Obviously, those people chose Harvard.

Susan and Aries, I posted in the other thread in which Susan asked this question, but yep, my interviewer's name is akin to a holiday, so you've got it. We went to the cafe Common Ground in Montpelier. I think it went fairly well, though I didn't ask as much or talk about everything I would have liked to. I'm relieved that my part is done, but now it's time for the wait. Thanks for your support!

By Haon (Haon) on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 07:16 pm: Edit

My point isn't that the majority of Tufts is filled with people who were rejected from Ivies. My point is that Tufts has a reputation for being a school for Ivy rejects, and that point is backed up by the fact that the majority of people choose Ivies over Tufts. This means that Tufts is second choice to the Ivies for this demographic of people. Thus, for those who do not get accepted into Ivies, Tufts is their next choice.

I agree, the 3/20 students who choose Tufts over Harvard or MIT are to be commended for choosing based on fit rather than pure academics. However, many (if not most) of the 17/20 students who choose Ivies over Tufts do so for fit as well so assuming that Ivies are all prestige whores is a false assumption.

By Haon (Haon) on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Also, it's possible (even likely) that Tufts DOES have a fair amount of prestige whores...who just weren't admitted to an Ivy.

By Metz (Metz) on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 07:31 pm: Edit

>>My point is that Tufts has a reputation for being a school for Ivy rejects, and that point is backed up by the fact that the majority of people choose Ivies over Tufts

Ummm, I'm not gonna debate whether or not it's a school for Ivy rejects, because I don't really know. But what you just said is not a very solid argument. You say the majority of people choose Ivies over Tufts. I'm pretty sure the majority of people choose Ivies over ANY school. In fact, I doubt there are more than 5 schools that are preferred by the majority of people that get into them over Ivies. Maybe Williams, CalTech, Stanford, and MIT. Schools like Georgetown, Northwestern, UChicago, etc. probably have quite a few students that get accepted into them + Ivy's, and most still go to the Ivys.

By Metz (Metz) on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 07:32 pm: Edit

>>Also, it's possible (even likely) that Tufts DOES have a fair amount of prestige whores...who just weren't admitted to an Ivy.

As do many schools like Berekley, Georgetown, University of Chicago, etc.

By Pistolpete (Pistolpete) on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 07:48 pm: Edit

Haon,
Your argument may or may not be true, but it's not backed up by evidence. Your information (for which you have not even provided a link) says that of those students who are accepted to both Ivies and to Tufts choose Ivy. Okay. Then you say that Tufts is an Ivy reject school. The first assertion does not prove the second. You assume that because some people were accepted to both Ivies and Tufts, MOST people who apply to Tufts also applied to Ivies. Perhaps Tufts is the second choice, as you say, for students not getting into Ivies. Making the generalization that the entire Tufts student body is made of Ivy rejects remains fallacious.

Also, please do not misconstrue my words. I simply said that the 3/20 students who were accepted to both Tufts and Ivies and chose Tufts were obviously not driven primarily by prestige (which, according to you, seems to equate to academic quality...another misleading statement). Never did I assume "that Ivies are all prestige whores." Those are your words. I merely stated that those who were admitted to both Tufts and to Ivies are obviously NOT.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 09:49 pm: Edit

I'm moving the Tufts/prestige/Ivy conversation to a new thread, so the debate can rage there.

Let's keep Carleton vs. Tufts, child development, bio, pre-med issues here.

FYI: New thread is "Carleton vs. Tufts, spin-off thread." Pardon the lack of creativity.

By Tennizpro06 (Tennizpro06) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 06:39 pm: Edit

thanks aries so ..back to child development.. and not being a pediatrician but some other kind of physician.. would psychology in general be a better major?

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 01:35 pm: Edit

I really do not know that answer; you may want to look up the requirements for child development and psychology and see which one would appeal to you more. I have heard that many medical schools (and law schools) state that you should take classes which are interesting to you, as you will then get more out of them. Now, psych vs. CD, in terms of Tufts... both departments are excellent, but I believe that the CD one is considered to be one of the best in the country. Psych may afford more research (traditional) opportunites. CD seems more interdisciplinary, while psych seems more focused, especially if you do something like neurological or social.

By Outsideinsider (Outsideinsider) on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 11:18 pm: Edit

Just have to correct ClickSpring about Carleton:

The school has 1800 students and is located in Southern Minnesota, 45 minutes south of the Twin Cities. It is located at almost exactly the same latitude north as Middlebury.