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We are receiving an average of 5 brochures per day in the mail now. Some known to us, some not. The range of schools he is receiving is just as puzzling to us. He's received information from Rose-Hulman & William and Mary,(my understanding both great schools) to some third tier schools. Why is he getting things from schools that I question if he would qualify for? His SAT scores where not that strong, although his PLAN scores (ACT) from sophmore year are much more promising.

He seems to be more interested in the programs offered and the student life than the overall prestige of the institution. Just how important is prestige, or should I just be happy that he is picking a school which he feels will fit in with his personality and career goals? And if it is so important, how do I convince the boy that maybe he should look into some of them, even if they are not geographically where he wants to go.

By Roger (Roger) on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Fit should be the #1 objective, IMO. Prestige is OK, and may help just a bit when searching for that first or second job, but shouldn't be chased after in lieu of the right environment for the student. Some people have a belief that the name on the diploma is the most important thing - they are misguided. While there are a very few industries (investment banking, management consulting) that do put a premium on elite degrees, the overall statistical evidence suggests very little difference in financial success when comparing elite vs. non-elite (and controlling for the quality of incoming students).

It would be devilishly difficult to study, but my guess is that if you compared students who ended up in a college environment well suited to their needs vs. those who made a choice based on non-fit factors (prestige, cost, closeness to home, etc.) you would find that the kids with the best fit achieved greater success in later life.

Be happy that your son hasn't bought into the hype, and by all means help him find some great choices. Certainly, Rose Hulman and William & Mary couldn't be more different... Some research and college visits (overnight when possible) should help narrow the field.

By Dave Berry on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 07:33 pm: Edit

>>Why is he getting things from schools that I question if he would qualify for?<<

In the computer world, it's called "spam," 1TCM. Your son's name is on many colleges' direct-marketing lists. They bombard millions of juniors and seniors every year in hopes that their slick brochures will inspire more applications. For Tier 3 schools, the hope is enough enrollments to fill their classes, thus enough tuition dollars to pay the bills. For elite schools, the goal is to garner more applications so that they can reject more applicants, thus lowering their acceptance rate, thereby becoming more "prestigious." Pretty interesting, huh?

>>He seems to be more interested in the programs offered and the student life than the overall prestige of the institution.<<

Give thanks, 1TCM. Your son is wise beyond his years. He has instinctively turned toward the "best-fit" approach rather than the "Big-Name" chase. While I'll never deny that a degree from a so-called "elite" college can open doors for graduates, I'll vigorously proclaim that success and happiness can just as likely be found in life with a degree from the least-known of colleges. "Prestige" is a highly subjective term that is perceived in many different ways. Continue to support your son's best-fit quest. However, just to be fair, suggest that he consider a "prestigious" college if, indeed, it offers the right mix of his desired selection criteria.

By 1TCM on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 07:47 pm: Edit

Thanks! Your responses were reassuring. Can however, a biology department at a third tier be as good as a first tier? And how do we decipher the differences? I'm assuming (a big assumption I might add as you can tell we're green at this) that the prestige factor is based upon not only financial statistics but the university as a whole not a specific department. Even if some of the other deparments are not as strong perhaps it is possible to find a bio department at a 2nd or 3rd tier that is top rate? How about when and if he would decide to go on to grad school, does the prestige factor come into play?

By Dave Berry on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 07:55 pm: Edit

You need to get The Gourman Report, 1TCM. Some Tier 2 or 3 departments can come pretty darn close to or even rival Tier 1 departments in certain disciplines.

As for grad school, as with UG applications, the main factors are standardized test scores (GRE), college performance, recs, personal statements, and overall application marketing savvy. Ivy grad schools have lots of students from relatively far-less-well-known UG schools. Once again, focus on fit rather than prestige.

By Dadster on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 09:41 pm: Edit

1sttime, one slight caution - look at the overall school, not just the bio department or whatever... more than half of all kids change majors at some point, and it would be good if the college has other strong areas to choose from. You mentioned Rose Hulman - one thing that always worries me about a superb technical school like that is the fact that a kid who decides to major in art history or another non-technical major may well have to transfer. On the other hand, some kids really know what they want to do...

By R Storm (Anonrs) on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 02:38 am: Edit

1sttime college mom -- we are from the west coast. When we started the college search, son was convinced that it was college in California or nothing. Never in his wildest imagination did he ever think that a CA college would end up on the bottom his personal list and his top three choices would be in Ohio, Iowa and Wisconsin!!! As he says, when he made his final decision, he chose the college not Ohio. (Ohioans please don't take offense at that statement -- what he meant was that it was a world away from the west coast and CA. He's really enjoyed his college time in your state).

At this stage, encourage your son to look beyond geography just as he is looking past prestige -- there are some wonderful colleges in some quite unexpected places! There's time later to draw up a pro and con list; what seems like a negative at this stage (like geography) may be completed overshadowed by some absolutely positive match attributes.

BTW, I don't believe there's any such thing as a 100% match -- each college will have both pros and cons; your son will need to weigh them in terms of importance as he determines his best fit. The college process is also a personal growth process; a time of change and insight. Your son may surprise both of you with where his journey finally delivers him!

By Dadster on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 04:12 pm: Edit

>>there's any such thing as a 100% match <<

On the plus side, I've heard stats that suggest more than three quarters of freshmen are pretty happy with where they end up. This would suggest that even colleges picked for the wrong reason, or no reason, tend to work out in many cases.

By Roger (Roger) on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 12:49 pm: Edit

I agree, Dadster. It's easy to get hung up on a particular college as the ONLY one that will work. In fact, there are probably any number of schools that will work for a particular student, no doubt having different, but still positive, outcomes.

By 1sttimecollegemom on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 03:55 pm: Edit

I did as Dave suggested, went to my local library and picked up The Gourman Report, published in 1997.

A few observations. Mr. Gourman seems to be quite caught up on the large state run university systems. There really wasn't much information on smaller liberal arts schools. He seemed to rank them lower on the scale. I wonder why?

A few things surprised me, I'll use Florida Institue of Technology as an example, ranked 7th in Marine biology. It however didn't rank at all in any Aerospace catagories, which surprised me knowing that it was basically conceived for NASA.
Also a couple of what US News calls fourth tier schools also ranked very high in a few special academic specialties as well.

It's definately food for thought!

By Roger (Roger) on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 04:18 pm: Edit

I'm a little leery of Gourman's rankings, but I think it's a useful "idea generator" for students who have an interest in a particular major.

The bias toward large state schools has been recognized by Gourman critics. Unfortunately, unlike USNews, Gourman does not publish either the data or formulas that create the rankings, so it's impossible to tell why this is. It's certainly easy to imagine that big state schools could rank high in some measures (e.g., number of professors, number of students in a particular discipline, etc.) which could skew the rankings in their favor.

The Gourman report is kind of like sausage - the end product is visible and sometimes tasty, but who knows what went into it? Used properly, though, the Gourman is a handy way to come up with some schools for further research. Its ideas are probably at least as good as those from the typical harried guidance counselor (who may have last fielded a question about marine biology five years earlier) or your Uncle Henry (who considers himself a college expert). At the same time, I wouldn't count a school's presence (or non-presence) in a Gourman list as a major factor in choosing a college.

By 1sttimecollegemom on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 09:23 pm: Edit

Roger, I think after reading it, I agree. I'm lucky in the fact that 3 of the schools the boy is looking at are listed in his top picks for his program, as well as two of them having a decent rating's overall, both in USNews and Gourman. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed! I was taken back that one of the schools we'd heard had one of the best programs (in marine science LOL) was not on any of his lists as being great even in the particular discipline.

By Dadster on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 05:34 pm: Edit

1stcm, one of the best things you can do for establishing the bona fides of a school in a particular department (or to get school ideas) is to talk to the people who hire grads - industry managers, human resource people, headhunters, etc.

Keep in mind that these sources can be inaccurate and/or biased, too. When the Wall Street Journal rated business schools a while back, Carnegie Mellon and Purdue MBAs were rated ahead of Harvard MBAs by headhunters. One of the reasons was the more reasonable salary range demanded by these grads. (There were other reasons, of course, like CMUs strong quantitative training.) One could flip that around, of course, and point out that the demand for the CMU and Purdue grads was lower, as evidenced by lower average salaries. Same data, two conclusions.

By Roger (Roger) on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 10:27 am: Edit

Seconding what Dadster said, 1sttime, don't put too much stock in any one source (be it a book, a person, a ranking scheme, a magazine article, etc.) Everyone wants to know which school is best for one thing or another, whether school A is better than school B, etc. In reality, these questions are often impossible to answer, because "better" and "best" are simply too broad and non-specific. Questions like, "which are the top few schools investigating the effects of dopamine on synaptic response in post-traumatic stress victims?" CAN be answered with some precision - questions like "which school is best for psychology?" are just too general. Plus most recommendations don't take into account the student's needs and characteristics - even if you established that College A had a better regarded psychology program than College B, it's possible that a given student might excel in the latter environment due to the teaching style, the research opportunities available, etc.

In short, check the rankings, listen to the experts, even see what Uncle Henry has to say, but don't put too much faith in any one of them. Good luck!

By Devils Advocate on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 06:57 pm: Edit

When a school has earned an outstanding reputation with all the attendant prestige, that has meaning and value to prospective customers. Often, prestige is presented as the opposite of fit, as if the two are mutually exclusive, but there's no reason for this to be the case. Accept that, by definition, bio departments at 2nd or 3rd tier schools are probably not "top" rate. Whatever frustrations appear from the process, there is reason and methodology for the findings. Some will argue that they might as well be derived by throwing darts on a chart, I don't think that position is realistic. This is not to say that anyone should adhere to rankings 100%, just that when a school fares poorly, there are probably reasons for it which might deserve closer inspection.

There is a dichotomy between research universities and smaller colleges focused on teaching, that is a valid distinction where fit comes into play but neither type has a monopoloy on prestige.

One suggestion is to look at the sub-groups within rankings for categories that have particular importance to you. In other words, customize the data to better suit your individual needs.

You are getting brochures from schools he may not qualify for for the same reason you get circulars in the mail for products you may not be able to afford; colleges are marketing a product (themselves) and need to get their names out to the public. Don't put too much stock in these mass mailings and don't take them personally, they are not guarantees of admission. They may, however, introduce you to a school you might not have previously known.

I would not try to expand your son's geographical comfort zone. You can make casual suggestions once, maybe twice, but be careful not to take advantage of your position as a parent where the influence is probably underestimated. You don't want to be blamed if he's unhappy with his choice. Refrain from being overbearing so you are not held responsible for his selection. Remember, you may THINK you are exercising restraint, sometimes parents can be heavier-handed than we realize so it might be better to overcompensate and bend over backwards to tread especially lightly on certain issues.

I agree with Roger's skepticism about Gourman rankings. I also agree with whoever said that most likely more than one college can meet your child's needs - try not to get hung up on only one. I also second (third?) the suggestion that you and your son expose yourself to many different sources and opinions to educate and familiarize yourselves with the process.

Good luck!