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Does anyone out there know much about comparisons between the different good, small liberal arts colleges like Williams, Amherst, Pomona, Davidson? They all sound wonderful and aside from the very obvious climate differences between the eastern and western ones, are there other things people can add? Such as, social environment, diversity, sports, strong departments, community service orientation, or anything else anyone can offer?

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 11:49 am: Edit

Books like the Fiske guide and Princeton Review Best Colleges and Universities will give you a good start on discovering differences, and there are plenty. Individual school websites are less useful, though great for comparing faculty numbers and class offerings in individual departments. Visits are a great tool, too, and you will want to visit as many as you can.

By Patient (Patient) on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 12:29 pm: Edit

Right, trying to do all of that, have read the descriptions, checked out websites, seen the rankings, will visit at least a few, going to college rep visits at school, etc. Just looking for anyone with particular insights or thoughts or unique perspectives!

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 01:00 pm: Edit

Some LACs are more liberal and diverse than others. Bowdoin and Bates, for example, have 18% minorities, but most of those are Asian-Americans. Wesleyan has a higher minority proportion, and most are African-Americans. So it makes for a very different campus environment. Wesleyan has a reputation for being far more liberal than many other LACs of similar size.
Reed also has a reputation for being very liberal as well as having an alternative curriculum.
Some LAC are located in places where it is easier to do community service. At Swarthmore, students have to go into Chester if they want to tutor low income students. Others are located closer to urban centers (which may or may not appeal to students).
Wesleyan has a very strong ethnomusicology department, Williams is renowned for its math, physics, and economics departments. Amherst's history department has a great reputation.

Hope this helps.

By Driver (Driver) on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Don't have any first-hand knowledge of the southern or western LACs, and we just couldn't make it to Maine on any of our college visits, so we didn't see Bowdoin or Bates. A nice grouping for comparitive purposes would be Wesleyan, Williams, and Amherst, and I basically agree with Marite above in her descriptions. Our daughter ended up at Williams precisely for the math, physics, and economics opportunities, also for the great physical beauty of the place. I don't think any of these schools lack much in any area, but some are especially good in certain of them. Personally, I think of Williams as being particularly good in math/sciences, and Amherst as being particularly good in more verbal areas...English, poli sci, foreign languages....But that doesn't mean that I think either school is a slacker in any department. Both schools have fine English and history, and both have excellent medical school and law school placement.

Two more schools to add to the mix are Middlebury and Dartmouth (Dartmouth is more closely related to the LACs than its fellow Ivies). My daughter ended up in a nailbiting final round of visits between Williams, Midd, and Dartmouth after acceptances came out (there are a LOT of common admits among those three schools). All three are in quintessentially beautiful New England villages, surrounded by mountains, with great skiing, canoeing, hiking, active Outdoors Clubs, and smart, motivated, athletic students (by that I mean intramural and outdoorsy as well as varsity/jv). Middlebury is particularly regarded for foreign languages, creative writing, and history, but as I said, none of these schools really goes lacking anywhere. The Middlebury science building is supposedly the largest building in Vermont, and it is truly spectacular. Sorry for the ramble, but I hope there's a kernel of useful info somewhere in there for you.

By Patient (Patient) on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 06:22 pm: Edit

Thank you Marite and Driver so much! This is exactly the kind of information that is really helpful. I get the feeling that Dartmouth is much more oriented toward fraternity life than others which may not even have a Greek system. Am I wrong there? (And, does it make any difference?)

By Driver (Driver) on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Williams did away with frats 40 years ago. Amherst doesn't have them either, and I don't think Midd does. If I recall correctly something like 40% of Dartmouth students belong to frats, and it's still a big deal there. I have no personal experience with frat life, so I don't know what to make of it. Wesleyan has a very tiny frat presence.

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 09:04 pm: Edit

Dartmouth tried to eliminate frats sometimes ago to erase its reputation as the model for Animal House, but alumni howled in outrage. I think that the frats are still there but have become a smaller part of campus life. But I don't know how small is small. 40% seems a lot.

By Driver (Driver) on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 10:44 pm: Edit

Our tour guide last year estimated combined fraternity/sorority participation at 40%. The 2003 Fiske Guide says 34/27 Frat/Sor; The 2002 PR Guide says 40/34 Frat/Sor. So 40% as an average was probably too high, it's probably more like 37/30% in frat/sor. That's still a pretty significant presence.

By Mike (Mike) on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 01:09 am: Edit

The Williamette University President was Dean at Dartmouth before coming west a couple of years ago and he said, in a newspaper interview, a major motivation was he didn't want to invest his career in fighting Greeks at Dartmouth.

Mike's Dad

By Driver (Driver) on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 09:29 am: Edit

You can get an impression of the Greek/administration conflict (from the pro-Greek) side at the Dartmouth Review web site.

http://69.57.157.207/

By Vadad (Vadad) on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 10:25 am: Edit

In the south, the two LACs that get the most good press are Washington & Lee and Davidson. We've visited both. Both are fine schools with first-rate faculties and facilities, as well as beautiful campuses. Both are excellent preps for the professional schools and most graduate programs. Like 99% of all colleges, they both have mostly liberal faculties. My impression is that the student body at W&L is pretty conservative and Davidson is a bit more equally divided, though I've done no polling. Neither are particularly politicized, though. Serious students, tough curricula at both. Pretty heavy Greek emphasis at W&L; much less so at Davidson, where frats and sororities are basically eating clubs. Both have a strong community service emphasis, especially at Davidson, where the proximity to Charlotte affords more of those opportunities.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 11:30 am: Edit

My children found W&L and Davidson and Rhodes too conservative. They thought Wesleyan, Oberlin, Bard, Sarah Lawrence, Vassar, Connecticut College were too far the other way. They seemed to like Colgate, Haverford, Williams, Amherst,Bucknell, Lafeyette, Dartmouth as more midrange. They also liked Dickinson and Gettysburg. We did not visit the Maine 3 (Colby, Bates, Bowdoin), nor did we check out Middlebury but these school are very popular with the prep schools. Other interesting schools that they liked were St Mary's of MD, Mary Washington, They did not like Swarthmore. We are talking about a very diverse group of kids ( 5 of them) and the opinions seemed to be consistent. Also with their peers at the time and this is over a 12 year period of time.
I frankly am a fan of LACs and wish all of my kids went to that type of school.

By Driver (Driver) on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 12:31 pm: Edit

I didn't address the political climate at the LACs we visited because I had already gone on too long, but it's an interesting and important subject. I'll start with Wesleyan, with which I'm fairly familiar, having several friends who are alums, and several who are faculty members. It is by far the most political of the campuses we visited, and its sympathies are undeniably far to the left--and I do not say this as a criticism, despite it not being my cup of tea (nor my daughter's). The faculty members that I know are definitely "of the Left," but tell me that the student body has become even farther left than the faculty. Buses carry students to D.C. on most weekends for demonstrations, according to our tour guide.

We found Middlebury to be almost apolitical, although doubtless there are opportunities for debate and discussion. It just wasn't as out there in the open as it is on many campuses.

Because we were particularly interested in Williams, we payed close attention to the political climate (reading campus publications, most available online, is a great way to do this.) I have seen posters to various message boards call Williams "conservative" and have always been baffled by this. First of all, while I sensed a greater interest in politics at Williams than at Middlebury or Dartmouth, it was simply one of many interests, not an overarching one as at Wesleyan. I was also struck by the BALANCE of ideas being expressed, and the civility with which students debated in newspaper columns, letters to the editor, and in open forums as reported on by the newspapers. Students and faculty alike debate such hot button issues as gay marriage, US foreign policy, war in Iraq, affirmative action and yet remain a cohesive community. There is even a small pro-life student group that manages to put on an annual program without being subjected to abuse. Apparently there was a conservative campus paper at one time, and a College Republicans group, but neither has updated their web site in years. (BTW, no one has told me that a non-liberal would be abused or outcast at Wesleyan....just that they would not find many allies in debate.)

At Dartmouth, the focus of debate seems to be less on politics and more on political correctness. The administration's campaign against the Greek system is part of this (some believe), as is the decision, disliked by some, to do away with the Indian as the Dartmouth mascot (Dartmouth was originally founded as a school for American Indians, and the symbolic mascot was a respectful depiction similar to an old Indian-head nickle, not a cartoon). Also, although ethnic diversity is a goal at most if not all of these schools, some Dartmouth students complain about a "diversity orientation" program that, instead of leading to a feeling of shared community leads to a sense of "shared embarassment." It's also worth noting that the conservative Dartmouth Review has for years been the subject of repeated harassment by the current and last administrations. Despite being one of the most famous college newspapers in the country, whose past editors include such notables as Rich Lowry, Laura Ingraham, and Dinesh D'Souza, The Review was not invited to a campus Media Fair for new students several weeks ago, and their editor stated that when they showed up and set up a table, they were ordered to leave by the Dartmouth Police, under threat of forcible removal. The college doesn't even provide a link to the Dartmouth Review's web site. Dartmouth's a great school, but this atmosphere seems very unfortunate for the students.

Amherst struck me as politically similar to Williams. Politics is ONE interest among many, there are many outlets for political expression there, and the atmosphere seemed tolerant of a wide range of opinion. It is apparently very easy to obtain funding to start new student groups at Amherst, and there are a heck of a lot of them. One difference between A and W: Amherst is in a more populated area, contiguous to many other communities and associated through a consortium with four other colleges. Williams is in a town founded for the purpose of hosting the college, and as such, is the center of the community, and there is a strong sense of the old New England "town meeting" when a speaker comes or a debate is held.

All this is JUST my opinion, based on at least two visits to each school, college guides, discussions with current students, college publications, etc. There is no intent to offend or stir up an argument.

By Vadad (Vadad) on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 12:56 pm: Edit

Thanks for good info, Driver. Disappointing about the Dartmouth Review; I thought they had mended that relationship.

Jamimom--I think Mary Washington and St. Mary's of Maryland both are great "bang for the buck" schools. My closest friend's daughter is at Mary Washington, and one of my daughter's best friends is looking very seriously at St. Mary's. If you are in-state, both schools are ridiculously inexpensive in comparison to the educational opportunities and facilities they provide. Even if you're out-of-state, they are comparatively inexpensive. Both have great locations: MW is in what has become a distant suburb of DC and St. Mary's sits right on the water in a beautiful spot. And both schools are going to be a lot easier for students who haven't won a Pulitzer or invented cold fusion to have a shot of getting admitted.

By Haon (Haon) on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 02:13 pm: Edit

Top Tier:
Williams was my first choice so I'd personally recommend it--there really isn't a bad side to WIlliams.
Amherst is a very good school but doesn't have quite as supportive environment as Williams does.

Second Tier:
Pomona is excellent but in a fairly smoggy area.
Middlebury was my second choice for college...very similar to Williams, a slightly more homogenous and politically apathetic student body.
Dartmouth is just as selective as Amherst and Williams but doesn't see QUITE the same placements/acceptance rates into grad schools. An excellent school if you're adamant about going Ivy (personally I'd highly recommend LAC).

Next Tier:
Wesleyan, while a very good school, isn't on the same academic level as A/W (someone listed it as being similar). Politically extremely liberal and concerned with being PC (I'm liberal but they seemed more PC than anything else).

By Chicagohopeful (Chicagohopeful) on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 06:14 pm: Edit

maybe the only downside about williams is that it's in the middle of nowhere but i still truly love the school.

By Driver (Driver) on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 07:42 pm: Edit

The "middle of nowhere" stigma is one that haunts many schools. My daughter's college guidance counselor keeps a book of "reviews" by previous students commenting on their college experiences. Many students who attended schools all over the country wrote that they loved their schools, but felt isolated in the boondocks. I never saw that complaint about Williams. A couple of theories: It is remote, but the school and its matriculants seem mutually selective, i.e. the students know what it is, want to be there, and the adcom recognizes this. I think the same could be said of Middlebury. Also, Williams is in the middle of a prime vacation destination, not just farmland. No, it's not cosmopolitan, but it does have two world-class art museums, a fine performing arts center that draws important performers, proximity to Tanglewood, etc. It's country, no question, but it doesn't feel as remote as some other schools we visited (and also liked a lot). It's hard to explain, and definitely a reason to make sure you visit your schools, more than once if possible.

By Patient (Patient) on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 08:01 pm: Edit

This is such a very helpful thread, I can't thank you all enough! Great information to consider.

By Allison (Allison) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 02:14 am: Edit

tell me, marite, have you visited bowdoin? there's more "non-asian minorities" than you think.

By Jimjunior (Jimjunior) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 03:21 am: Edit

I can give you a run down on some of the west coast schools.

Pomona is a very strong institution. If you look at raw numbers, the freshman profile is comparable to the most selective institutions in the US. The campus is clean and filled with gardens and big trees everywhere you look.The student body is very evenly divided among different academic areas. Most students are liberal.

Claremont McKenna-Not quite the level of Pomona, but still a very high quality LAC. The campus is adjacent to Pomona and the two colleges share many facilities. The difference is taht Claremont has a larger focus on a liberal arts education that is also very practical. They traditionally are more conservative, and students often choose management or political majors.

Pomona's campus is much larger. the ability to cross enroll between these schools makes for great diversity, and a unique LAC experience

By Marite (Marite) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 06:13 am: Edit

Allison:

We did visit Bowdoin a couple of times, and my son was accepted there. He almost decided to go there (a friend of his from summer camp was attending). The adcom officer who headed our information session was Japanese-American and was helpful, enthusiastic and committed to increasing minority presence. We got a sense that Bowdoin was doing its best to attract minorities of all kinds, though its success was higher among Asians (true, I think, of most LACs except Wesleyan).
Our school is extremely diverse (40+% minority) so it made him aware not only of the lower minority presence in some schools, but in the surrounding towns. In the end, I think it was geography that decided him to go to another LAC. But all along, he and we felt he could get an excellent education at Bowdoin.

By Allison (Allison) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 02:42 pm: Edit

alright. lately, bowdoin's been doing a better job with the other minorities. of course, it's still a small liberal arts school in new england, with all that that implies, but the racial diversity is growing. some people question whether other forms of diversity are benefitting from the school's efforts to increase diversity, though...