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I'm no way close to IVY material- think 3.4 or so GPA. What would be a good college i should apply to in order to get into the TOP law schools. Im a hard worker more or less. What colleges send a lot of students to good law schools in your opinion?

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 12:03 am: Edit

Claremont - Mckenna, difficult to get into..from a UC you can go to BOALT.

By Newyorkmom (Newyorkmom) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 07:31 pm: Edit

Having worked in a law school, I can tell you that if you do well in college and get a high score on the LSAT you can go to any top tier law school. There are no colleges that are better undergrad institutions than others when it comes to getting in to a top law school just as there are no preferred majors for future lawyers. Admission to law school is a completely different process than college. Law schools place a lot of emphasis on LSAT. Scholarships are often awarded on the basis of LSAT score. They look at GPA in conjunction with the major and college attended. ECs are completely irrelevant, references won't help if your numbers are not good, its all in the numbers. This is because law schools live and die by the US News rankings and median LSAT and GPA (not where students went undergrad) are very important in the US News calculations.

By Spiritofhadad (Spiritofhadad) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 07:49 pm: Edit

What if you care to matriculate from a Canadian University to a top tier Ivy League School in the states?

What then?

And another thing...what if you hold TWO bachelors degrees... are you at an advantage?

By Fiza (Fiza) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 08:49 pm: Edit

thanks everybody, but esp newyorkmom, that was very helpful

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 09:22 pm: Edit

As a grad who is looking at law schools, I can help you out a bit. You want a small school which will allow you plenty of opportunities to speak in class, argue, write, and think analytically. You want to be able to develop good relationships with your professors. Small classes and extensive interaction will help you with some skills you need for law school (which is taught via the Socratic method: the professor will quiz a student on a case, modify it, and discuss the implications of the change).

Majors in philosophy, classics, and hard sciences/engineering tend to do quite well in law schools, so you can start to center your college search around schools with excellent departments in those. However, your major does not matter; law schools want to see that you are passionate about something and have developed good analytical and writing skills.

New York Mom: Any advice for someone looking at law schools now?

By Fiza (Fiza) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Ariesathena, Any suggestions/good colleges yuo know of???

Uve seen my gpa and my sat score is highest 1330. I took a very difficult coarse load. I have decent ECs. I live instate VA and am asian and im thinking of majoring poli sci.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 11:13 pm: Edit

Look at these:
Rhodes (TN)
Trinity U (Texas)
Southwestern U (Texas)
Dickinson (PA)
Ursinis (PA)
Loyola (MD)
Hobart & William Smith (NY)
Hiram (OH)
College of Wooster (OH)
Hendrix (ARK)
Wheaton (MA)
Wittenberg (OH)
Washington & Jefferson (PA)
Syracuse (NY)
U of Redlands (CA)
U of the Pacific (CA)
Williamette (Oregon)
Presbyterian (SC)
Hartwick (NY)
Albright (PA)
Allegheny (PA)
Lynchburg (VA)
Seattle U (WA)
Whittier (CA)
Knox (IL)
Lawrence (WI)
Beloit (WI)
Clark (MA)
George Mason (VA)
Fordham (NY)
Denison (OH)_
University of Denver (CO)
Centre (KY)
Drew(NJ)


All accept good B/B+ students with mid-range SATs and have good track records of preparing their students well to take the LSAT. They are all good for getting students into law school, some are exceptional.

By Fiza (Fiza) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 02:17 am: Edit

Wow thank you very much for the extensive list. That helped out a lot and im sure you took a lot of time thinking of it too. Out of curiosity, since its near here, would Mason qualify as a exceptional one or where u refering to other ones?

Which from the following list are good with fin. aid and EXCEPTIONAL as well?

By Apguy (Apguy) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 04:59 am: Edit

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Quote:

They are all good for getting students into law school, some are exceptional.

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By Nymom (Nymom) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 07:37 am: Edit

Newyorkmom: good advice (I like your name too!). Law schools care very little about ECs; admission is based heavily on the LSAT, and to a lesser degree, GPA. The Boston College website has a "law school finder" that allows you to search for law schools based on these factors. Law is a very stratified profession, as I've said here before, and where you go makes a huge difference in your options upon graduation. So, the best advice I could give anyone applying to law school is to go to the highest ranked law school to which you are accepted (provided it is geographically acceptable to you). (Newyorkmom, did you teach in law school? I'm a "retired" law professor, in public service for awhile.)

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 12:14 pm: Edit

Your assumption about BU being the "better" school for going to Harvard is not really valid. BU has close to 18,000 undergrads, a school like Rhodes and Trinity have 1500 TOTAL. The numbers alone don't tell the story. Look at the percentages. Yes, BU might send 10 people to Harvard, but out of how many students who applied to law school from that class? With thousands of students in an average graduating class, what is the PERCENTAGE of those applying to law school actually going on to Harvard? How many actually APPLIED to Harvard, Yale, etc. out of that class? That's probably a truer measure of how "good" a school is at getting you into Harvard than looking just at the raw numbers. Let's assume that Rhodes or Trinity with 350 graduating students have 30-40 students in a class applying to law school, while BU, with many thousands in a class might have a thousand or more students apply to law school. I'd probably be more impressed with Rhodes sending 1 person or Trinity sending 2 to Harvard than I would BU's 10 out of probably 1000 (or more) students applying to law school. Of course, I'm just making those numbers up but look beyond the raw number of acceptances to see the real picture. Some of the schools on the list (such as Trinity, Rhodes and Wooster) have had 100% admittance into law school in some years. Also, bear in mind that these are not all schools in the Northeast so it may be that not every student at these schools wants to go Harvard Law because they want to practice in a certain state. And finally, ask the percentage of students who apply to Harvard or Yale DONT get in. Take a look at what Ariesathena and New York Mom have to say --- small schools where you can broaden your mind, get lots of analytical experience, make personal contacts with professors, where students score above average on the LSAT scores , and where you will receive personal help throughout your education, including with law school applications and counseling, can be a better choice for pre-law than large universities where you may have little interaction with professors and a totally different type of academic experience. Of course, everyone will have a different opinion on this and much depends on the type of academic setting that works best for each individual...but for a student with a 3.4 GPA in high school, I'd recommend an excellent small school where you will most likely have the type of personal academic experience that pushes you forward over a large university where it is easy to get lost in the crowd without anyone noticing. The schools I listed are all excellent schools in and of their own right academically, beyond just the raw numbers of how many in a single year's class end up going on to Harvard Law.

By Apguy (Apguy) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 03:03 pm: Edit

Your point on BU is valid but if Fiza wants to go to a "top law school" many of these schools will still fail to do so. Even if we look at the "percentages" like you say, schools like Dickinson, Ursinis, Hiram, Hendrix, Williamette, Presbyterian, Hartwick, Albright, Lynchburg, Seattle U, Whittier, Lawrence, Beloit, George Mason, University of Denver, Centre will all have a 0% acceptance rate to those top law schools despite their population. These may be some fine schools but I would hardly say they are "exceptional" in sending kids to top law schools (what Fiza's request was) when many of them don't send any.

By Fiza (Fiza) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 04:43 pm: Edit

APguy i think u have a valid point. In your opinion...

Should i reconsider the schools Carolyn listed?

Will they limit the grad schools which will accept me?

What are some good colleges that i can get into with a gpa of 3.7 or 3.8 WEIGHTED or 3.6 UW(which i may possibly have next year) that sends its students to HYP?

thank you in advance to all posters.

By Newyorkmom (Newyorkmom) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Thanks everyone. I have both taught in law schools and now work in a law school in an administrative capacity. I agree that you should go to the best law school to which you are accepted. It does make a very big difference on the job opportunities you will have after law school. However, this may only be relevant to people who want to practice in large cities where competition is tough and the types of job opportunities and salaries vary greatly. For example, a new Assistant District Attorney in NYC earns under 50K per year while a first year associate at a large firm earns over 100K. Both may have the same student loans to pay. Which brings me to another point to consider. If your grades and scores are outstanding, you may find that a second tier law school will offer you a full or substantial scholarship. The issue for you then will be: Do you take the scholarship and graduate debt free or do you incur the significant loans that most law students now accumulate (average law school tutition in NY is approaching 30K per year for three years, add this to college loans and some people have well over 100K in loans to pay before they even start practicing). This would be a tough decision to make. On one hand you do not have the calling card that comes with a degree from an elite law school but you do have the flexibility of taking a job you really like for less $$$. Also most big firms do hire top students from the second tier schools, although not as many and you really have to be at the top of the class to complete with people from the elite schools.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 09:30 pm: Edit

At the risk of being told I'm stupid, here's some thoughts on choosing an undergraduate school if you're interested in law school. I am going to use BU and the College of Wooster for comparison sake but I am NOT implying that either is any better or worse for going on to law school.

The average national acceptance rate to ANY law school
is 42% (according to Bates College pre-law web)but I've seen other figures that are closer to 70%. That means that 30% of students who want to go to law school don't get in ANYWHERE. Schools with very high law school acceptance rates that are posted on the Internet: Bates -78%, Vassar 74%,
SUNY Binghamton - 90%.

These are NOT acceptances to the "top schools" just to any law school. I'd want to make sure I was maximizing my chances to get into law school, not just the top law schools (although that is information that should be included as a bullet point). Many colleges (including BU) do not list their actual law school acceptance rates on their web site or in their literature. If I was interested in law school, I would want this information and would contact the pre-law program at any schools I'm considering and ask for specific data about total law school acceptance rates as well as what schools their students tend to go to. THAT would be what I would be most interested in finding out first before I worry about the actual number who got into Harvard Law School, especially if I'm admittedly not Ivy material or have a relatively middle of the road GPA.

Second, Boston College (another very good school for pre-law) has an excellent web link called the Law Locator Matrix. This allows you to see the average GPA and LSATs required by many individual law schools. Here's the information for Harvard, Yale and Stanford:

Harvard: Av. GPA of accepted students, 3.76-3.94, average LSAT range 167-173
Yale: GPA, 3.67-3.97, LSAT 168-174
Stanford: GPA: 3.67-3.93, LSAT 166-170
The NATIONAL average of students accepted to all law schools is GPA 3.29 and the average LSAT score is 152.

You can find the law locator at the Boston College web site (www.bc.edu) with a search for "law locator matrix" You might also find it interesting to plug in your current GPA and use your SAT scores as a ROUGH approximation of what you may do on the LSATs if you took them tommorrow. This will help you to see what law schools you would qualify for now and what you need to do in college in order to qualify for the "top" law schools (i.e., how much will you need to get your GPA up? How well will you need to do on the LSATs? etc.)

With this in mind, I would think anyone hoping for a "top" law school - or, indeed, ANY law school - would also want to find out the average LSAT scores and average GPA of students applying to law school of any undergraduate school they are considering. It would also be useful to know how many students from that school who go on to law school finish and actually pass the bar in different states but that is probably not information maintained officially by most undergraduate universities and colleges. However, I would think that the pre-law advisement office of any school should be asked about how students fare in law school and beyond. If the pre-law advisers don't really have a sense how their former students do after graduation, I'd wonder why.

I'd also want to find out about the law school advising program of any school I was considering.
How many advisers do they actually have on staff and what is the number of students each adviser counsels (think about it: would you rather go to a high school where your guidance counselor is helping 400 or 500 other students or one where you get one-to-one advising from your g.c. because they have a smaller number of students assigned to them? Which do you think would be better for getting into a good college?). How good is the advising? Will I meet with my advisor every year or just when I'm getting ready to apply to law school? Will my advisor know me personally and know my strengths and weaknesses so they can better advise me when I'm getting ready to apply to law school?

I'd also want to find out what types of pre-law support is available on campus in terms of organizations and functions geared to pre-law students. Obviously, a school like BU where there are hundreds, if not thousands, of pre-law students is apt to have more organizations but your chances of having a leadership role in a smaller school may be greater. BU also has the advantage of having its own law school, which might translate into opportunities to attend law seminars, etc. that a smaller school wouldn't. Each person needs to decide for themselves which is most important to them. I'd also want to find out about opportunities for internship placement related to law so I could further develop my skills AND determine if law really is what I want to do before I go through the trouble of applying to law school - and I'd want to know how stiff the competition is for law-related internships.

I'd also spend some time thinking about what type of academic environment would be best for ME as an undergraduate. Is a small school where I get lots of individual attention better for me personally than a larger school where classes may number in the hundreds? Or would I prefer larger lectures because I'm highly self-motivated? Which type of environment will help me reach my full potential? What's my learning style and where will that best be served? In short, if I'm not Ivy material now, which schools will do the best job of helping me become Ivy material in the next four years?

Finally, just wanted to mention that the College of Wooster has a combined Law/BS program with Columbia University. The top students from Wooster are able to start Columbia law after their junior year at Wooster, thus getting their BS and JD in 5 years. I would want to look at each school I was considering and see if they have any similiar programs available with "top" law schools. Of course, for most of these programs there will be no guarantee you will be accepted unless you have the qualifications, so I'd also want to find out how many pre-law students there are in each grad. class, in other words what my competition is. BU for instance has 500 plus pre-law students in each class while the College of Wooster has less than 50.

Finally, I'd look at the curriculum of the schools I was considering. How tough is the curriculum? Will I have the chance to do lots of writing (absolutely critical that you not just do writing but also receive help in improving and developing your writing skills). Will I be able to participate in class discussions to hone my logic and debate skills? Read what the American Bar Association has to say about preparation for law school and law practice (the College of Wooster has a link on its pre-law program) Is there an emphasis on taking small seminars where I will be pushed beyond my limits and develop the intellectual capabilities necessary not just to do well on the LSATs but to succeed in law school and on the bar exam? Will I get a well-rounded exposure to all sorts of academic areas? Will there be ample opportunity to do in-depth research (for example, the College of Wooster requires all students to complete a senior research thesis of a minimum of 100 pages) In short, I'd want to know: will this college help me reach my MAXIMUM intellectual capacity in the next 4 years based on where I am now?

Anyhow, those are just my thoughts about what I'd look at in an undergrad school if I was interested in going on to law school. Hope these thoughts help someone.

And yes, I would still look at all the schools on the original list but of course there are many others that should be included as well. I was merely recommending those schools as a starting point. I'd ask these questions of any school I was seriously looking at and I'd email the pre-law advisers to find out their answers. As usual, EVERYONE should develop a list of schools that include reaches, safeties and matches --- just make sure all three categories have the right answers to these questions. Good luck!

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 02:34 am: Edit

I think that was very useful and intelligent information Carylon, thanks.

By Newyorkmom (Newyorkmom) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 12:05 pm: Edit

A few comments on Carolyn's post:

Most if not all the statistical info you mention as important re a law school, bar pass rate, median LSAT/GPA, retention rate is available in a publication from the ABA called "Official Guide to ABA APproved Law Schools" It contains information submitted to the ABA by law schools annually on all sorts of relevant statistics and you can use it to compare the requirements, etc of the schools you are interested in attending. I owuld not be surprised to find that the info on the BC web site was taken from the ABA stats.

I would NOT want to just get into a law school, any law school. I would certainly think twice about attending a 3rd or 4th tier law school in terms of future job prospects. I would never attend a non-ABA approved law school (California has many.)

Pre-law clubs, activities, etc may be fun while in college but they will count for nothing when it comes time to get into a law school. Also, I don't think you will learn anything by knowing the average GAP/LSAT of people from a given college applying to law school, if such a stat is even available (and I doubt it is). I doubt schools track students to see how they fare in law school. Not only would this be difficult to do, but it tells you nothing about the particular college becauses colleges do not and can not really prepare people for law school, the nature of the education is very different. Same with bar pass rate. This is an important thing to consider when selecting a law school, not a college. Bar pass rate is no reflection on a college, but it does indicate the strength of the student body/curriculum/teaching at a law school.

If you want to go to law school, you should only go to a good school (US News first or second tier), in the state in which you intend to practice. You can achieve this my getting very good grades in any major at just about any college and doing very well on the LSAT. It is that simple.

Law school applications tend to go up when the ecomony is slow, so this is probably a very competitive time to be applying to law school. However, I would take a J.D. over an MBA any day. Law degrees are among the most flexible graduate degrees, you can practice law, go into business, teaching, writing, do anything with a law degree.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 01:43 pm: Edit

NewYorkMom -thank you for the information - A few questions, however, that might help the original poster in trying to decide which UNDERGRADUATE school to attend.

You mentioned it is best to attend a good aba-accredited law school IN the state where you hope to practice law.
I'm assuming that increases your chances of doing well on the state bar exam because coursework will cover state-related law. If that's the case, should students interested in schools like Harvard Law or Stanford Law intend on working in Mass. or Calif. or would they be better off applying to the best law school in a different state if that's where they want to work?

On the undergraduate level, which is the op's main question, Is there any advantage to choosing an undergraduate school in that state as well?

Are there any specifics they should look at in choosing an undergraduate school program to help them prepare for taking the LSAT's (i.e., a writing intensive program or something else?)

Thanks for your thoughts - I'm sure pre-law hopefuls will appreciate your ideas.

By Mrbobn1 (Mrbobn1) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 02:11 pm: Edit

i am also a soon to be senior in the same GPA rande as you who is looking at pre-law. many of these aforementioned schools i know little about but from the pamphlets i have recieved so far i know that hendrix yearly sends students to law schools such as harvard, vanderbilt, bc, GW, Wash u, NYU, and yes yale. over 90% of it's prelaw grads are accepted at law schools in the first or second tier. rhodes has a 94% acceptance rate and its list of "post pre-law" student's choice of attendance include havard, yale, tulane, wash u, and vanderbilt to mention a few. i also recieved things from lawrence but they listed very little about their "post pre-law" graduates so i was led to believe it was not a big subject for them. i was also wondering about tulane. is it good for law school, i had always heard that it was and was wondering if this was true, also is it good for pre-law? i hope at least some of this info is helpful and it would also be great if you could shed some light on my question as well.

thanks

By Newyorkmom (Newyorkmom) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Law schools can be classified as national or regional. The most elite schools, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia have national reputations and their students do well on the bar in any state (NY and CAL bars the most difficult). If you are not attending a law school in the US News top 25, you should consider a school in the state you want to attend. It makes no difference where you go to college in terms of geographic location. There really is little that college can do to prepare you for the LSAT, its just another standardized test which tries to measure how well you will succeed in the first year of law school. You should major in what you like and interests you. Law students come from a broad range of undergrad majors and some have had other careers before going to law school (doctors, teachers, engineers, accountants). Good writing skills are essential in any profession esp law and will certainly help once you are in law school.

By Fiza (Fiza) on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 01:17 am: Edit

wow thanks everybody for your posts. I learned a lot!

By Lil12002 (Lil12002) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 07:25 pm: Edit

Sorry to bring up this old thread, but there was alot of very usefull information here given by all, especially Newyorkmom. Thanks again.