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I like big names, like Oxford and Harvard. However, I don't understand why we don't list any liberal arts colleges as academically equal to the big name universities. Amherst is certainly better than the University of Paris and Georgetown, Penn, and Brown. Why don't we list them?

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 02:14 pm: Edit

There are plenty of outstanding Liberal Arts colleges that are equal academically to the big "name" universities. Here are just a few (in no particular order):

Carleton
Pomona
Swarthmore
Haverford
Harvey Mudd
Bryn Mawr
Claremont-McKenna
Whitman
Grinnell
Oberlin
Holy Cross
Davidson
Colgate
Smith
Wellesley
Williams
Wheaton (IL)
Reed
Washington and Lee
Vassar
Trinity C
Colby
Bates
Bowdoin

Other LAC's that are right up there academically:
Kenyon, Earlham, MacCalester, College of Wooster,
University of the South, Rhodes College, Pepperdine, Hiram, Hendrix, Union, Hamilton, Hobart & William Smith, Mt. Holyoke, Wabash, Ripon, Beloit, Lawrence, University of Puget Sound, Willamette, St. Olaf, Occidental, Morehouse, Spellman, Mills, Millsaps, Middlebury,
Lewis& Clark, Hollins, Goucher, Dickinson, Lehigh, Boston College, Muhlenberg...etc., etc.

I've looked at the programs in many of these schools and have been extremely impressed by both what is required of students, the availability of research at the undergraduate level, the faculty's credentials, and the rigor of academics. All are terrific schools that provide a wonderful education. However, like all schools what is "best" for one person may not be "best" for another person.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Well, i actually knew a few Swarthmore kids who laughed at Harvard kids (when they were talking about how "tough" their school is).

LACs like Swarthmore, Williams, Wellesley, Wesleyan, and Amherst are WAY WAY up there, some are even considered better than all the Ivies.

The only reason why it's not mentioned much is because they are relatively small schools, and because of this it's not as famous as other schools, even if the education is superior to most. LACs don't have grad programs, so the resources aren't sucked away by them, very few teaching assistants etc... The quality is generally better. If you go to a top LAC, the skills you get from them are phenominal, and the job opportunities are all there. Grad schools love LAC graduates, and are even sometimes preferred.

By O71394658 (O71394658) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Swarthmore is hardcore.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 03:45 pm: Edit

Carolyn, you seem to live and breathe the particulars of colleges...what's *your* opinion of Skidmore?

D is light on Safeties and when she gets home from ballet camp I'm thinking of suggesting Skidmore in addition to, or possibly in lieu of, UC Irvine.

Reaches: Yale (EA), Harvard
Match: Smith, Barnard
Safety: UC Irvine

Others under consideration: Columbia, Georgetown, George Washington, Stanford

Currently 3.9 GPA uw, 1400 SAT I, 2180 for three SAT II's; will be re-taking SAT I and two SAT II's in the Fall.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 08:16 pm: Edit

TheDad,
I was actually going to write to you when I saw Your d was considering Skidmore. It's one that I've looked at closely for my daughter because she was interested in one of their summer programs. From what I see, it would be a safety for her but the male-female ratio is still somewhat skewed so I've heard it's somewhat easier for males. Average SATs are in the high 1200's. Strong programs in american studies, anthropology, art/art history, bio and chemistry, business admin, education, classics, dramma, foreighn languages and history. The campus has a relatively modern feel from the pictures I've seen.

The stereotype of skidmore is that it attracts lots of east coast rich girls who ride horses (they do have one of the top equestrian programs in the country) but I've heard from others that that is no longer true and that there's now a strong artsy student component. Two girls from my daughter's high school here in San Diego have gone to Skidmore in the past two years and both say they really like it. One girl who I talked to said it's a very relaxed atmosphere socially and a friendly campus. I don't have any specific info. about the dance department except I do know they run a very highly thought of summer art and dance program. One of the things I liked when I looked through their catalog and department information is that there seems to be a nice combination of liberal arts and more practical subjects available (i.e., business and teacher education courses are available). They also have a good internship program, one of the things I always look for in a liberal arts school. They also have an excellent study abroad program.


Here's what Kaplan's guide has to say:
"Skidmore's curriculum emphasizes integrative learning and breadth. Student can choose from more than 60 majors, both in the traditional liberal arts and in preprofessional fields. 'The school really gives students the ability to pursue a variety of interests,' says a student. However, one guidance counselor frets that Skidmore places too much of an emphasis on the arts an dnot enough on science and engineering.
The 850-acre Skidmore campus offers striking views of the Adirondack mountains...and its own pond. Saratoga Springs, known for its racetrack is a fun, hip town full of great shopping eating and clubbing. The school runs an hourly shuttle bus to downtown Saratoga but the town is within a 15 minute walk. All full-time students are required to live on campus except for seniors.
Students tend to be intellectually curious and open-minded with a strong sense of initiative and concern for others. The party scene is pretty tame: there's no Greek system..."


Has your daughter looked at Goucher as a possible safety? Like Skidmore, it's a former all-female school but has a top notch dance program. STudents are able to take exchange courses with Johns Hopkins as well, I believe.

By Pisces (Pisces) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 08:50 pm: Edit

Most people who *know* their colleges (grad schools, your future employers, other smart people)know that lac's are as good as the big name university undergrad programs. It's just that they dont have the name recognition universities gain from their grad programs and research facilities. Also, their usually in the middle of nowhere- most people dont see Colby from their office window. Many of the professors at the big name universities got their undergrad degrees at lac's- just look in the back of the course catalog. If you're worried about name recognition in the real world, dont worry- most people who matter know what Swarthmore is.


PS- Middlebury and BC definitely should have been on the first list.

By Szetom (Szetom) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:16 am: Edit

LACs usually dont have as much recognition because they have smaller class sizes (by class i mean class of 2007, not a certain course) so they don't have as many connections.

but they are equally great, if not better.
Because they are smaller, you are a lot more connected with the administrators, professors, and there is more support for the student body.

By Szetom (Szetom) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 09:31 am: Edit

hehe it's not important, but by class i didn't just mean class of 2007, i meant like class of a year...

Lol i totally have way too much time on my hands

By Muzicgal04 (Muzicgal04) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Just a note about Swarthmore: many swatties reject Ivies, including Harvard, in favor of a small liberal arts education. It is quite possibily the best educational institution in America. It is often overlooked because people get in by merit, not by mommy and daddy's money.

By Usfpete (Usfpete) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 10:30 pm: Edit

Carolyn....
You seem to have a misconception about Hiram...it isn't that good of a school...other schools in Ohio like Ohio Wesleyan and Denison are clearly better

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 11:32 pm: Edit

Yes, Denison and Ohio Wesleyan are also terrific schools - didn't mean to leave them off the list.
I like Hiram because of some of the unusual semester program it has that allows for some pretty neat off-campus study programs. At less than 1000 students, it is very small though.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 03:22 pm: Edit

I can't believe no one has mentioned Amherst in this thread except me. Williams was briefly mentioned. What are the opinons about those two schools? Amherst is better than Swarthmore, right? Are these schools at all internationally recognized? Lots of prestige?
What about Dartmouth? It's a liberal arts too, it just isn't listed as one normally because it has a few grad. programs and it's an Ivy? Are these schools perhaps the world's best undergrad., even over Oxbridge?

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 04:14 pm: Edit

I think Swarthmore is better academically... But that's me. There's no category for academic rigor in nearly all college ranking systems (including USNews), if there was, Swarthmore would probably be #1.

LACs who don't have grad programs are almost always better than the universities that call themselves one (ex. Dartmouth). The reason is that LACs do very little research, and when research is available, it is open to the undergrad. population (so you actually participate). Technology usually reserved for grad. students are open to you (when LAC students go onto grad school, a lot of the machines aren't new to them, they actually are welly acquainted with a few of them, and know how most of them operate, while people from Harvard or anywhere else wouldn't be as welly acquainted with the machines as a LAC student is). The school's main focus is teaching, not research. You are taught by REAL professors, not TAs, and school resources aren't sucked up by the grad schools and students.

And i'd say Swarthmore is atleast just as good as Oxbridge. I can say the same about Amherst and Williams. This paragraph is only opinion though, so don't quote me on it, you can quote me on the second paragraph though, i sincerely believe it's true. Anyways, good luck.

By Bobhood (Bobhood) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 11:52 pm: Edit

it's kind of silly to rank the schools so precisely...you can't say the amherst, williams, and swarthmore are better than the university of paris or brown...and it's silly to argue whether swarthmore is better than oxbridge. they are all very good schools! i'm an mit undergrad...i strongly believe that my undergraduate education was just as well rounded as a good friend of mine who attended swarthmore (and by the way, i had discussion sections taught by TAs, but i NEVER had an actualy course taught by anybody except a professor who was also a premier world authority in his/her subject! mit has a lot of money...much of which goes into research and the grad program...however it is mistaken to think that it is "sucked away" from the undergrad program. big universities often have SO MUCH more money than LACs that they have just as much money as any LAC put into the undergrad side, and then they have a lot more to put into everything else.)...my experience was also just as, if not more, intense than his! perhaps it is better to think more in terms of "tiers" than just one vs. the other ranking.

one reason national universities get more attention than LACs is because people look to the professors' involvement in their fields--not just at the teaching. although most LAC profs are involved in research, VERY FEW of them are really involved in ground-breaking world class research published in the top journals. there is something to be said for being taught by someone who is really the world's authority on what he/she is teaching! this of course is not to say that you have to be a world authority on something to teach it well...some excellent teachers are just that--nothing but teachers. i think it's really more what you make of your education!

i think LACs are great, and really the most appropriate place for certain people. However, they are seriously overrated in that they are NOT the "best" place to get a "focused" undergraduate education and personal attention...you can get that at a lot of places.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 12:36 am: Edit

Do you recommend I go to Oxford, Dartmouth, HYP, Amherst, Swarthmore, or Williams?

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 01:29 am: Edit

You're probably not asking me, but i have one suggestion.

Go check out the campuses and sit in on some classes. As you can see, a lot of people have different opinions. Why take my word for it? Actually, i want you to not believe me, go out there and find out the truth for yourself. If you are financially capable of visiting all those possible schools, do so during the school days. Your High School will understand 100% if you go during a school day; if you go during spring break, make sure the schools you are visiting aren't having their spring breaks at that time too (you can't interact with the student population, and that really hinders the experience; get to know the people, the environment, the professors, the dorms, the food, and clarify on stereotypes by asking current students and professors ex. do MIT kids really only study? etc... )

Asking someone to choose your school for you is ok, but not recommended. After checking out the campuses, i assure you that you will beable to choose your own destiny for yourself, and will enjoy it a lot better than having a random user off a messageboard choose a school for you.

What bodhood says is very useful. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes. Someone fits better at MIT than at Amherst, another at Amherst instead of Harvard etc... IF you are going into grad. school, undergrad school doesn't matter as much as the grad. school. So pick the undergrad. school for the experience, and if prestige is still important to you then choose a pretigious grad. school after you experienced the udergrad life.

This is just general advice i get from a lot of people.

By Bobhood (Bobhood) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 01:18 am: Edit

i agree 100% w/ tuannguyen...it's whatever works best for YOU that's important...and if you go to a good grad school, no one will ever again look twice at where you went to undergrads (except for high school kids who look up your resume!).

in addition to just visiting to get a feel for the place, talk to students who go there and see what they think of their own universities.

also, i don't want to put you down, but college admissions are rough. nowadays, very very few people get into all those schools...so maybe you should send out your apps and wait and see where you get in before worrying to much. in the event you do get in everywhere, all hte more powere to ya!

By L_Bird (L_Bird) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 10:45 pm: Edit

Carolyn, would you happen to know which of those LACs you mentioned have the best English, mass communications, and/or music programs? Thank you!!

By Xyz155 (Xyz155) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 11:06 pm: Edit

You guys are crazy trying to decide whether Swarthmore is better than Harvard. I mean give me a break. If you get into either one of those schools you are obviously really smart and are going to get somewhere in life. Some people go to a small liberal arts school if they know exactly what they are going to major in and want a small environment. Personally, I think I'd rather be in prison but that's there decision...Larger schools give everyone a lot more room to move around. It's all about your preference. I do not think that there is any logical way to decide which school is better, it is whatever fits you the best which makes a school the best. This is why US News does not even put these schools on the same list for there Top 50, it just isn't possible.

By Howdydoody (Howdydoody) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 01:06 pm: Edit

I don't think Swarthmore is really any tougher than Williams or Amherst. It's all a stereotype. I think Swat's "intensity" is very overstated.

By Pisces (Pisces) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 08:22 pm: Edit

agree with what xyz said, except that a lot of people go to LACs because they DONT know what they want. that's what's great about liberal arts, you have to take a sampling of everything and you might take a class that you never even dreamed of liking and then decide that you want to major in it. But of course, not everyone should go to an LAC. most (not all) dont have engineering, so you'd be much better off at a big university for that.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:38 pm: Edit

Let me try to describe some of the differences between universities and liberal arts colleges. First of all, the differences are not all black and white. There are a lot of areas where the two types of colleges overlap.

The "liberal arts" include areas like the fine arts, classics, languages, philosophy, sciences, mathematics, and history--there are others. Liberal arts colleges tend to keep to those types of broad areas of knowledge.

Many universities and colleges, while including those areas, ALSO allow students to take courses in very specialized areas like business, engineering, agriculture, nursing, criminal justice--and many others. In many cases you can major in liberal arts at a "non LAC" (gets weird doesn't it?)

The difference between the two camps centers on the debate about just how much specialization is a good idea at the undergraduate level.

As a prospective college student you should be aware that there are MANY paths to many different careers and professions.... and those paths may pass though either liberal arts or specialized education. For example, you can become a fine lawyer by majoring in philosophy or by majoring in a particular field of business administration. Some people would claim that such a lawyer would have a different "flavor" depending on which path he took--I would have to agree! You really do need to read about the two different approaches and see which feels best for you—no matter what field you think you may end up in. Speak to people who went to liberal arts colleges and to people who went to more specialized colleges and universities----before you decide.

-----

You have probably noticed a certain characteristic of some people who you meet for the first time. Soon after you hear them talk for a short while, you get the strong impression that, not only have they have been to college, but that they are "educated" in way that is noticeable. In my opinion, what you are hearing is the result of a core of liberal arts courses--art history, literature, music, history, perhaps philosophy--and others--that they just may have picked up in combination with some extremely specialized curriculum.

Whichever path you take, make certain YOUR education includes a variety of those core area college courses; you will never regret it.

By Arcanius (Arcanius) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 01:06 am: Edit

Bravo to Xyz155
Folks - everyone in this forum has obviously trained long and hard for their college career. It is time for you to begin to think past your college years and toward what kind of life you desire, what is it that you value? No matter which of these fine institutions you may select, it will be what you make of it. Latch on to the professors with whom you communicate best, don't get hung up on courses; select personalities - that is what you will be dealing with for the rest of you lives. Assert yourselves and your personalities wherever you attend. A future employer who is more impressed with your grades and your pedigree than your character is probably someone whom you will eventually take leave.