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I was wondering what kind of good liberal arts programs there are for those of us who cannot get into some of the tougher stuff. I want to go to medical school, and probably will major in biology.
SAT: 650V,650M
GPA: 3.8 (unweighted)
7 AP Classes
over 400 volunteer hours, including coaching kids basketball
involved in NHS, Spanish Club, Mu Alpha Theta
4 Years of Varsity Track and Swimming
lots of work experience such as coaching swim team, lifeguarding, working on a cherry farm, and teaching swim lessons

These are my credentials. . .any ideas?

By Spiffybrownboy (Spiffybrownboy) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Yesss... I'm in this same situation! My SAT's are 1320... and ACT 27 currently, but I hope to retake and get a 30. I want to major in bio too and I'm looking for a good liberal arts school to do it in. Can anyone help us? BTW, I have good EC's, two in particular that I am VERY involved in and can demonstrate a passion for and have received national recognition in one. Good essays and recs too.

By Perfection101 (Perfection101) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 06:14 pm: Edit

The answer that you guys want hinges on your class ranking, urm status, pre profesional track, and type of learning environment desired. You really need to up your SATs (I bet you can), but I would try for schools that fit your particular interests. Visit several colleges, I did and found that Northwestern was a better atmosphere for me than Rice, Columbia, Swarthmore, or Washington University in St. Louis (all superb choices might I add).

By Procrastinating (Procrastinating) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Carleton College in MN has a great biology program (typically the most popular major in each class), and many of the majors are pre-med. I'm a rising sophomore at Carleton, and will be declaring bio as my major. Other LACs I looked at that have strong bio programs include Macalester, Swarthmore, and Oberlin.

An SAT score of 1300+, combined with high grades & a less-than-superficial involvement in ECs should be enough to get you serious consideration from the Carleton admissions committee. Carleton is an extremely selective school, but they definitely consider more than just SAT scores. (FYI- I was accepted with a 1320 SAT & a 30 ACT). Good luck with your college searches!

By Swimmachica711 (Swimmachica711) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 07:22 pm: Edit

Do any of you know how accurate the Counselor-o-matic is on the Princeton Review website? It gives you "good match", "reach", and "safety" schools to tell where you could possibly get into.

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 10:01 pm: Edit

3.8 + 7 APs is a very strong record, but the SATs will give the most selective liberal arts schools some pause. For example, Swarthmore would be extremely difficult.

HOWEVER, once you have a list of schools that look good to you, make contact with the coaches in your sports as well as with the admissions staff. If a coach has a specific need for someone with your times in your events you may find that your SAT scores suddenly decrease in importance.

There are some particularly good liberal arts schools in the Midwest for bio/pre-med. Carleton would be the most selective, followed by Macalester and Grinnell. All excellent choices. Look hard at Lawrence and St. Olaf, too. Both are very strong in bio. (BTW - Relatively competitive swimming at most of these schools - not so strong in track. Check your times against those on their websites.)

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 11:48 am: Edit

Agree with all the schools mentioned so far - here are some other schools in different areas of the country that have good pre-med/bio programs and would be matches with your above-average stats:

Bates College (ME)
Franklin and Marshall C (PA)
Goucher College (Maryland)
Oberlin (Ohio)
Trinity University (Texas)
Southwestern University (Texas)
Union College (NY)
College of Wooster (Ohio)
Kenyon College (Ohio)
University of Rochester (NY)
Rhodes College (TN)
Dickinson (PA)
Colgate (NY)
Davidson C (NC)
Denison U (Ohio)
Earlham (Indiana)
Occidental C (CA)
Trinity College (CT)
Reed C (Oregon)
Whitman College (Washington)

By Swimmachica711 (Swimmachica711) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Are my SATs really going to hurt me that much?

By Spiffybrownboy (Spiffybrownboy) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 03:36 pm: Edit

I was looking into U of Rochester... didn't know how good its bio program was, but glad to see it's on the list! Carleton with a 1320 and 30? Really? I was always under the impression that you needed like a 1400 to get in there - guess I'm in the running! Procrastinating, did you apply early decision? I have pretty high grades... around 3.7 unweighted and 4.0 weighted (roughly, we do it on a number scale so I usually have 93-94 unweighted and 96-99 weighted... depending). Right now... here are the colleges I'm thinking of...

--Safeties
Rutgers Univ. (it's cheap)
The College of NJ (it's cheap as well)

--Universities (some are reaches)--
Univ. of Rochester
Univ. of Illinois Urbana-Champaign (supposed to be good in microbiology, i don't know about molecular)
Tufts (big reach)
Univ. of Michigan (maybe)

--LAC's--
Wesleyan
Carleton
Middlebury
Vassar

Don't know about early decision, haven't visited anywhere and I don't know if I can... so I think it's just safe to not do early decision anywhere.

Oh and about class ranking and URM status and all that stuf someone mentioned, I am an American-born Indian male ranked in the top 5% to top 7% in a class of 283 (exact rankings have not been released). My two main EC's are Indian Classical Dance, which I have learned from 5 y/o and have performed extensively for the community, and vocal music... I've made All-Region, All-State, All-Eastern, and All-National choirs and hopefully I'll audition for the presidential award this fall in one or both of these disciplines.

Does my list of schools sound realistic???

By Procrastinating (Procrastinating) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Yes, believe it or not, I was accepted to Carleton with a 1320 SAT. I did apply ED, which probably helped, and I also had a great interview. Remember, it is not all about SAT scores! Spiffybrownboy, your grades look strong, and Carleton also seems to love unique extracurriculars, so definitely focus on your involvement in Indian Classical Dance in your application.

Another thing- Carleton biology students become very involved with professors' research, and it is not too uncommon for a student to co-author a journal article with a professor. Definitely a great school for prospective bio majors to consider.

By O71394658 (O71394658) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Emory is a very good school. The admissions rate isn't too bad (45%), and the college is very good. It especially has a good pre-med and business program. It's in the South, and is easily one of the best universities in the South, recognized along the lines with Rice, Duke, and U. of Virginia.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Spiffybrownboy - most of your schools look like either matches or reaches for your stats. I'd add a few safeties to the list and you'll be set. Good luck!

By Lovejoy (Lovejoy) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 02:03 pm: Edit

The University of Wisconsin is a good match and excellent in biosciences. Top 10 excellent.

By Spiffybrownboy (Spiffybrownboy) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 07:38 pm: Edit

Yes, Carolyn, pretty much all of the LAC's I listed are reaches, and out of the universities, Tufts is a pretty big reach. The others are matches. The problem is I don't know what other safeties I can have... Rutgers and TCNJ are the most obvious ones because I live in NJ and those are cheap and easy for me to get into. Could Penn State be a safety? It's in the top tier, which is making me reluctant to put it under my "safeties" list.

As for UW - Madison, it's a very good school indeed but a BIT too far. That's also my problem with Carleton... I wish all the good schools could be right here in the north east haha.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Take a look at some of these schools for possible safeties: College of Wooster (Ohio), Gettysburg (PA), Hobart-William Smith (NY), Goucher (MD), Dickinson (PA), Denison (Oh), Hiram (Ohio), Ursinus (PA), possibly Skidmore (NY) --- all have decent bio departments and are close to home. The plus about Penn State is they take so many people each year so it may qualify as a safety-match for you.

By Swimmachica711 (Swimmachica711) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:57 pm: Edit

Can anyone think of any West Coast schools that are good in bio (pre-med)? I was thinking Carroll College in Montana, they are pretty small, but some other ideas would be great.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 11:50 am: Edit

In addition to most of the University of California schools (especially Davis and San Diego), these west coast schools have excellent biology departments and a good track record of getting students into med school:
Whitman college (Washington)
Reed (Oregon)
Pomona (CA)
Occidental (CA)
Pepperdine (CA)

Other west coast schools with good biology departments include: Seattle Pacific (Washington),
University of Puget Sound (Washington), Willamette (Oregon), Gonzaga (Washington), Albertson college (Idaho), Loyola Marymount (Calif), and Lewis & Clark (Oregon), University of San Diego (CA - not talking about UCSD but the private University of San Diego)

If you're willing to look at Texas, Southwestern University and Rice are both good schools for bio.

Carroll College also has a strong program as you already know.

Good luck!

By Winterfresh (Winterfresh) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 11:59 am: Edit

To answer the question about about the 'Counselor-O-Matic' i suggest you answer the questions it asks you as best as you can.

the counselor can be a little bit too generous in the schools that it picks for you. but it really helps in letting you know about schools u never heard of before.

By Spiffybrownboy (Spiffybrownboy) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 03:42 pm: Edit

It definitely is generous... it gave me some clear reaches as good matches... and matches as safeties.

By Anonrs (Anonrs) on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 12:52 am: Edit

There are many good reasons to take a closer look at any of the terrific schools that Carolyn suggested! I have a few tidbits to flesh out some of the schools.

Swimmahica, I don't know what sort of role you want swimming to play in your college life. If swimming is very important to you might take a closer look at both Denison and Kenyon -- both schools are DIII swimming powerhouses, esp Kenyon. Kenyon has held the DIII national mens title for 20+ consecutive years and the womens title for something like 18 of the last 19 years. Denison is their perennial rival.

Kenyon is still better known for the humanities than the sciences but it HAS spent big bucks on expanding science during the last 3-4 years. It might be worth it for you to investigate if the KC bio program meets your requirements; if it's in the running, you could apply for the Science Scholarship that is worth 1/2 tuition.

Sportswise, Carleton is known for ultimate frisbee. And I recall reading a very short blurb in the Seattle Times a few years ago that Grinnell held some sort of record for number of throws taken in mens basketball -- not baskets made but throws taken. The article said that ~taking a shot, any shot, whenever you can~ is a major coaching strategy. Grinnell is the front runner in the schools under consideration by my younger son, now a senior. He finds Grinnell's quirkiness very appealing as did my older son who eventually chose Kenyon over Grinnell and had a most wonderful college experience at Kenyon. (Older son was a philosophy major who happily avoided "real" science; he grandfathered into the last year that Psychology counted as a lab science at Kenyon -- so I really can't tell you much about Science at KC). Carleton is also a school of strong interest to younger son.

btw, you may want to take a closer look at course requirements: does the college have a core curriculum or distribution requirements? Both my sons express(ed) a strong preference for the schools with more liberal distribution requirements over a more restrictive core curriculum -- they appreciate the ability to ~really jump~ right into their majors.