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What are the world's best universities? Can you rank the top 10? I wonder about Oxford and Cambridge. How do they place? How is Oxford different from Cambridge? Which is better? How hard is it to get into Oxbridge classics? I know this is a lot of questions, but I can't really answer any of them. I want to go to Oxbridge, but I don't know which one of them I want to go to. I thought about the Ivies. Is it better for world politics, business, and law to go to the Ivies over Oxbridge? All feedback is greatly appreciated!

By Moshe (Moshe) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 06:51 am: Edit

Classics is a very unpopular subject (only toffs apply) and so ridiculously easy to get into at Oxbridge (80% + are admitted).

Anyway, there's no comparison between British and American universites, they're completely different. If you want to study in Europe by all means do so...

By Uncchlocalmayor (Uncchlocalmayor) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 09:50 am: Edit

UNC Chapel Hill is the best!

By Cornellian07 (Cornellian07) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 05:35 pm: Edit

I would say...

1. Cornell
2. UNC Chapel Hill
3. Oxford
4. Cambridge
5. Princeton
6. Harvard
7. Massachusetts Institute of Technology
8. Yale
9. Stanford
10. Indian Institute of Technology

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 08:23 pm: Edit

Cornellian07,I understand #'s 2-9, but I don't understand #1 or 2. I am guessing that Indian Ins. Tech. is the premier school in India. Why Cornell? It is a great, top notch Ivy leager, but you have to be realistic in selecting your schools, no biases allowed. The same with Chapel Hill, I live in NC, UNC is great! It is a great school, so is Cornell, but I don't see how they compare with Oxford and Princeton. Please defend your argument.

By Serene (Serene) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 08:30 pm: Edit

That is a clearly biased ranking judging from your name, Cornellian =)

Just as I would vote for Harvard as the best college in the world ^^

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Harvard is definitely more of competitor to the university throne. I would say the main competitors are Oxford and Harvard. Cambridge and Princeton are probably third and fourth. I am glad you see my point Serene, Cornellian made a totally biased ranking, however that's not to put down Cornell or UNC.

By Dschnapps (Dschnapps) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 09:43 pm: Edit

I might even put IIT higher with its prestige as THE tech school in India.

By Cornellian07 (Cornellian07) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Pds, I was making a joke. Chill out.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 10:20 pm: Edit

Okay, but I would still be interested in knowning an Ivy leager's rankings, you being a Cornellian. I read from another message on the Princeton Review that Cambridge is considered all-around better than Oxford! I couldn't believe it. I always put Oxford first. My rankings would be:

1. Oxford
2. Harvard
3. Cambridge
4. Yale
5. Princeton
6. Australian National
7. University of Tokyo
8. Indian Institute of Technology
9. University of Cape Town
10. Stanford

By Uncchlocalmayor (Uncchlocalmayor) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 11:03 pm: Edit

1. UNC Chapel Hill
2. UNC Chapel Hill
3. UNC Chapel Hill
4. MIT
5. HYP
6. UVA
7. Stanford
8. Berkley
9. UCLA
10.Cornell

By Troy (Troy) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 11:12 pm: Edit

Cambridge is better than oxford...the only reason oxford has so much mystique in the US is due to the Rhodes Scholar program. The majority of Brits would agree with my opinon.

I would also argue that princeton has a stronger undergrad program than harvard. On the other hand, if you're ranking schools on overall appeal why not Stanford? Tree School is probably the most well rounded school in the world. Top all around academics (ugrad and graduate), top all around athletics, and great weather...that's a trifecta if you ask me. Where do you put the top canadian and french universities? They certainly deserve top 10 consideration. Don't they?

IMO, there are some really great schools in the world, but America is #1 in my book (Britain #2). Most countries send their brightest to US unis (and UK schools). In fact, it's a sign of elite status to send your children abroad to a top american/UK school.

My top ten would be mostly US unversities, with a couple UK unis (cambridge top half, oxford bottom half), and maybe an internatioal uni residing at #9 or #10. Am I being overtly patriotic and biased? Yes...but until America no longer dictates the global agenda on everything, I'm not going to change my mind.

By Ria (Ria) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 01:28 am: Edit

Troy, I acually don't agree with the fact that's it's a sign of elite status to send your children abroad to a top american school (UK, maybe). My parents don't want me to go to a school in the US. They would much rather see me study in England, France or even Italy and even I know that if I choose to study in the US I have to get myself an education here as well because a diploma from another country isn't worth that much here. Just my 2 cents.

By Londoner (Londoner) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 02:41 am: Edit

Troy, I agree with what you say about Princeton and Stanford- they're both exceptional unis (especially Pton ).

'Cambridge is better than oxford...the only reason oxford has so much mystique in the US is due to the Rhodes Scholar program. The majority of Brits would agree with my opinon.'

I may not be 'the majority of Brits', but I am a Brit and I know the opinion of many Brits on this issue. Oxford and Cambridge are thought of as the same over here. There are minor discrepancies in standards for diff. departments (eg. Cam better at English, Oxford has better medicine prog) but if you say to anyone here 'I am a Cam/Ox student',then you're in the club.

I agree with you that globally Ox has a SLIGHTLY better reputation...but over here it's really not the case. (Kinda like Harvard and Princeton over there. Those in the know don't consider Harvard to be better, but H has a slightly better rep)

Troy is right about the lack of int'l unis on the lists. There are unis in France that are so bloody amazing, only a select few Harvard students could have gotten into them.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 03:30 pm: Edit

What are the premier universities in France? I would love to hear what could be "so bloody amazing, only a select few Harvard students could have gotten into them." I always thought that Univ. Paris was the premier. Isn't it? Who else besides me would rate Oxford over Harvard and Cambridge over Yale?

By Dream5 (Dream5) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 05:32 pm: Edit

yet another ignorant thread.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 08:35 pm: Edit

I read from another site that University Paris I is another great university. I have not heard of any other great universities in France. What could be more prestigious than Oxford? I still have not heard a reason why Cambridge is considered better than Oxford in England.

By Dream5 (Dream5) on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Pds, you are ignorant.

Sorbonne is in France!

I have not heard a reason why Oxford is better than Cambridge, either.

I'll tell you some.
Camrbridge university has 80 Nobel laureates, more than any other univerisites in the world. (Harvard = 40, Oxford = 40)

Good enough for ya?

Don't worry, hun. Chances are you won't get into any of them.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 11:17 pm: Edit

Whoah, quite a harsh statement to make for someone who knows nothing about the other person on the computer! You don't need an attitude with this. I know the Sorbonne is in France, but if you kept up with the times, you would know that the University of Paris reorganized and University Paris I is part of what was the Sorbonne! However, you do have a point about Cambridge, it is a great university. I am just seeking intelligent conversation and advice.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 11:31 pm: Edit

Oxford may not be rated better than Cambridge, but it is perceived that way to the unbiased person. Princeton is rated better than Harvard, but people still consider Harvard to be America's premier school. It is all about prestige; Cambridge is now the leader, and in a few centuries it will be considered the best, if it keeps up its rating. Prestige is earned by past performance and alumni. Oxford's alumni are more impressive than any other school in the world. The rulers of the world go to Oxford, not Cambridge; some of those rulers would be Bill Clinton (he could have declined a Rhodes to go to Cambridge), King Abdullah of Jordan, the Queen of Jordan, Prince Naruhito of Japan, Hungarian PM Viktor Orban, President of Ghana John Kufuor, Australian PM Malcolm Fraser, Bob Hawke another PM of Australia, et cetera. There is a reason why they choose Oxford! Reputation is what matters because your reputation is what people think of you- that is what only matters because people are the only judges. If that is not proof that Oxford is the world's premier university than you are not convinceable. I would never put down Cambridge- it is in the world's top 5 and a real top-notch place; it's just that Oxford is better.

By Canadian007 (Canadian007) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 12:45 am: Edit

how come no one mentions Canadian universities???

By Dream5 (Dream5) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 12:53 am: Edit

They are not desired I guess.

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 02:25 pm: Edit

Pds112,

People have explained to you why you perceive Oxford as being better than Cambridge. It is only so in the United States. The reason: the Rhodes Scholarship program. Nothing else. In Britain, and in most of the Commonwealth, they are considered to be such similar and indistinguishable entities that they are referred to as 'Oxbridge'.

Your top 10 looks like an exercise in showing everyone how 'international' you are, and how much you know about different countries. You rate Australian National University as number 6? The VC of the University of Melbourne recently wrote this: "First, the bad news. Not one Australian university comes anywhere near the top 20 or so of the elite US and British institutions such as Harvard, Cambridge, Stanford, Oxford, Imperial College or Massachusetts Institute of Technology. What's more, you can tick off almost another 20 institutions before you come to the first Australian which gets a mention. In a single league table for the three countries, the first Australian institution - Melbourne University - appears around the 40 mark."

You also rank UCT at #9. UCT has an excellent medical school, I know that. But it is not in the top 10 of universities in the world. To try and claim so is absolutely ridiculous. Even within South Africa, Wits is a better university for everything other than Medicine.

And the University of Tokyo? Please. The difficulty with Japanese universities is getting past the entrance exams. After that you've already earned your degree, and you can spend the next few years sleeping in lectures (something that Japanese students in Japan are famous for).

Now let's address the Cambridge vs Oxford debate. The Times University Rankings are fallible. But they do provide broad insights into university rankings. Universities are assessed on 9 criteria. On 5 of those criteria, Cambridge is the best university in the UK (teaching quality, research quality, entry standards, firsts and 2:1s, completion rate). Oxford beats Cambridge in 2 of the 9 categories (library/it spending per student and facilities spending per student). Hardly inspiring stuff. International reputation also seems to be important to you, and so I feel the need to inform you that there are more students from foreign countries at Cambridge than at Oxford. And Cambridge is richer.

As long as we're trying to settle the argument by listing famous alumni, Cambridge always has: Jan Smuts, Lee Kuan Yew, Queen Margarethe of Denmark, William Pitt, Oliver Cromwell, Jawaharlal Nehru, Erskine Childers, Rajiv Gandhi and several others. The famous alumni argument just goes round and round in circles and eventually devolves into "Darwin is better than Einstein!" "But Imran Khan beats Mike Atherton!"

By Dream5 (Dream5) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 03:31 pm: Edit

don't sabotage him like that !! this kid is here for "intelligent discussion" about Oxford being better than Cambridge. lol

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 10:26 pm: Edit

Dream 5, I sure shut you up about the Sorbonne. I was trying to be nice without being so rude-but I really shouldn't have done that, ignorant Dream 5? Why are you here, Dream 5, to talk to idiots who know nothing? There is nothing wrong with "intelligent discussion" and if you ask, most people will say that Oxford is better than Cambridge.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 10:31 pm: Edit

Arealtexan, I am not an expert on any non American or British universities. I am only speculating-I only know what I have heard and read about ANU and Univ. of Tokyo. If you disagree, fine, that is what we are in this discussion for-to learn and discuss universities. I don't mind being told I'm a little off on the rankings-I can change them. You don't have to be so rude like Dream 5.

By Dream5 (Dream5) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 10:36 pm: Edit

Phd112:

You do not possess qualities to have an "intelligent disccusion."

BTW, I never read your message carefully. I just saw the part where you said you don't know any great universities in France.

Your words are not exactly Shakespear's literature. I didn't examine them word by word.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 10:41 pm: Edit

Arealtexan, have you seen the Financial Times's rating of the top 23 universities of the world-published in '02? UCT and ANU and Tokyo are in it! I greatly influenced my rankings by trying to include universities in the ranking from around the world. You have to read it. It is pertinent to the conversation. I think that was a great quote about the Australian universities, but it contradicts the ratings! If you think that I am better off studying Classics at Cambridge because of the academics, prestige, and money please say so. I want to know where I should go to study Classics. It would be very helpful to see your top 10.

By Dream5 (Dream5) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 10:43 pm: Edit

LOLOL

Pds, you can worry about which college to go to after you get admitted.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 11:17 pm: Edit

Dream 5, you are rude and ignorant. I have more qualities for an intelligent discussion than you. I don't hear you defending your answer-just having an attitude with your response. This discussion was fine and intelligent before you added your attitude. You should read my messages carefully! You might learn that University Paris I is the modern Sorbonne. Name any other premier univ.'s in France that can compete with the other world universities. To get something out of these conversations, you need to be able to bend a little, I have about Cambridge and Oxford. Your attitude needs adjustment-you don't have to be so narrow in your thinking,be influenced by others. It won't hurt. By the way, "Shakespear's" has an e after the r.

By Dream5 (Dream5) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 11:43 pm: Edit

According to my Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, Shakespeare, Shakspere, and Shakespear are all accepted ways of spelling the English poet and dramatist's name.

Thank you

(talk about "bending a little")

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 11:52 pm: Edit

Maybe so, but you understand my point since you only commented on "Shakespear's". This is not an "intelligent conversation"-it's road rage on a computer. We need to try to understand each other's point of view. I'm not trying to start a war. I checked and you were right about Shakespear and Shakespeare and Shakespere, sorry-in that I was ignorant. Cambridge is a great univ., but why don't you respect Oxford? I am not biased towards Oxford, I just see the difference between the two univ.'s-Oxford is prestige and Cambridge is real academics.

By Dream5 (Dream5) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 12:09 am: Edit

I never said I disrespected Oxford. Both are extremely prestigious universities.

All I said was it is rather trivial to distinguish which one is more prestigious. As I commented earlier, I just prefer Cambridge because of the number of Nobel laureates affiliated with the university.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 12:57 am: Edit

Well understood Dream 5. I understand the # of Nobel Laureates is important, do you by chance have the number of kings at Cambridge (I'm sure it's more than Oxford), saints, bishops, PM's, and other famous positions at Cambridge? I would be very interested in seeing them.

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 03:39 am: Edit

I've read through that FT top 23 universities in the world. It looks like it is an exercise in naming good universities internationally rather than objectively ranking universities. All of the ones on the list are "name" universities, but you cannot really compare a well-resourced Ivy League university to Tsinghua or Fudan, which the FT has done.

Constructing an international top 10 is a difficult exercise. Different countries operate different type of degree structures. The FT's ranking values highly the perceived brand-name appeal and research orientation of a university.

My top 10 would depend on what I wanted to rank - research and money or the strength of its undergraduate education. Quality of research and resources would mean that almost the entire top 10 would be US institutes, with Oxbridge thrown in somewhere. Maybe Imperial could also hover around the #10 spot. Quality of undergraduate education would, I'm afraid, not be so dominated by the United States.

As to choosing Oxford or Cambridge for Classics, learn a bit about your chosen subject. Look at the different colleges - it is the college you attend that dictates your experience more than the university. Examine the courses on offer at both of them, there are differences and that may dictate your choice more than anything. It might be a good idea to write to the Oxford Student Union to request an 'Alternative Prospectus' or access the Cambridge one on the CUSU website if you can't find anyone to take you through the 'character' of each college.

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 05:25 am: Edit

I forgot to add this:

Here is a website with lists of famous former students of Oxford and Cambridge

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/smb1001/alumni.htm

It orders them by college, and is by no means a complete list. Your question about royalty attending Oxbridge is flawed. Most royal in Britain until recently either did not go to university or attended Sandhurst or Dartmouth. That is not to say that none of them went, it just wasn't commonplace.

By Canadian007 (Canadian007) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 09:33 am: Edit

pds112,
can u pls giv me the link where i can find "Financial Times's rating of the top 23 universities of the world-published in '02".. thnx

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 10:56 am: Edit

http://web.uct.ac.za/general/monpaper/2002no15/top23.htm

I got that off of UCT's website, and it only gives the universities in alphabetical order. The FT's online archives are, as far as I can tell, subscription-only.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 01:17 pm: Edit

There is no ranking the universities Canadian007. They only list the univ.'s that they think should be included in the survey. I have looked hard, and cannot find a site that ranks them.

By Kaysouljah (Kaysouljah) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 04:53 pm: Edit

you guys are all jokin u refused to let university of ibadan in your top 20 ranking

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 01:05 pm: Edit

I wonder, how does Indian Institute of Tech. rate with these schools? I hear it is excellent, but nobody has really mentioned it in this thread.

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 01:25 pm: Edit

How does it rate with which schools, Pds112?

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 06:32 pm: Edit

How can IIT compare with other schools like HYP and Oxford-even though they aren't particularly science schools, Cambridge, MIT, Cal-Tech, etc?

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 07:29 pm: Edit

The hardest question is, which schools are better, Harvard or Oxford, Cambridge or Princeton? How does Oxbridge compare with the Ivies?

By Mattymatt (Mattymatt) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 08:27 pm: Edit

why do you care so much?

By Harvardguy (Harvardguy) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 10:33 pm: Edit

1.Cornell / Stanford (Overall:All Majors are Great)
2.UC Berkeley ( No Med School)
3.Princton (Not a Good Engineering School)
4.Harvard (No Engineering School)
5.Yale (No Engineering School)

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 12:19 am: Edit

Pds112,

I'd have to say Harvard is probably now in the lead when most people think of best school to go to.

Oxford i bet is probably now tied with Cambridge, no longer seen as better.

I wouldn't care too much about prestige of the school, because the BEST employers will know which school trains the best.

The top med student at JHU will be just as impressive, if not more, than the best med student at Harvard or Oxford. Top engineering student at MIT will be seen as tops and toes over *name ANY engineering school and i bet it can be put here* engineering...

I wouldn't care too much about the overall ranking, since most employers would know what colleges/universities train the best students in the areas they want.

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 01:56 am: Edit

Still, there is something about being someone who studied at Cambridge or the "Dreaming Spires" or at the Ivies. Prestige gains respect, immediately. There aren't as many bright people out there who will look at a John's Hopkins degree and consider it Oxonian material. It is all done for the prestige and bragging rights. In the real world, does it matter? No, a JHU or Emory or Georgetown grad. are just as likely to make the top, they just don't get the same bragging rights or respect. However, that is not to say that an Oxonian or Cantabrigian are likely to drop from the top, they are just easier in.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 02:20 am: Edit

Um, Pds112,

In SPECIFIC fields, some schools do get the bregging rights. JHU has the best med program, the employers in this field would know this. MIT has the best engineering program.

JUST because you have an education from Oxford, doesn't mean you'll automatically get bregging rights. It also depends on the field, sometimes.

I'd rather be respected by my employer for being a top notch student at a school that's good at the field i'm going into then be respected by everyone else who doesn't matter.

It's welly known that a Cambridge or Oxford education is top notch. But when it comes to being employed, the employers you'd want to be employed by would know the quality of your education.

What i'm saying is DO NOT worry about the prestige when it comes to that level of quality. Just go for the BEST in the field you're going into. Don't hesitate to go to Cambridge or Yale if they have the best Classics program just because you think an Oxford edcuation sounds so much "cooler". The people who count will know that you'd made the right choice for yourself and career. The people who matter will choose the best student at MIT for engineering over the top student at Oxford for engineering. Oxford is good and all, but i think MIT is better (i could be wrong, oxford could be better at engineering). Just saying you know, you know where i'm going right? The quality of the education is tops over toes when compared to prestige, quality over prestige.

Prestige should only come in when there is an absolute tie in quality. Of which i do not think there has ever been such a thing.

You know, i LOVE bregging rights, but you can also get that right by getting through the university that's the hardest to get through, hardest to enter, has best quality etc...

By Londoner (Londoner) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 02:24 am: Edit

I see your point Pds112, but I think it depends more on the type of person you are as to which job you will get and not the university name on your resume.

The brother of a good friend of mine read Classics at Magdalen College, Ox. and he failed to get a job assisting his local MP (member of parliament- sorry, im not trying to patronise...just wasnt sure if this is a known term in US). THere was nothing wrong with his degree (Classics can be used to get into almost any profession here), it's just that he is a bit of a mummy's boy and arrogant. You're right about HYP, Oxbridge people being ABLE to rely on their degree, but its probably to their advantage NOT to do so.

I value the opinions of the people writing on this thread, so I'll ask a question that I have wanted input on for a while:

Which is better, Yale or Princeton?

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 02:56 am: Edit

I think that Princeton is definitely the better school, but Yale is more famous and has many more ties. I understand what you are saying, it doesn't matter whether I go to Cambridge or Oxford for Classics, they are both great. The education is what matters. You don't think that in the U.S., Oxford will look better than Cambridge? By the way, I am an avid reader, I knew what an MP was, but thanks!

By Anotherdad (Anotherdad) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 02:42 pm: Edit

IIT has been mentioned on other threads. I do not have first hand information, but as I remember it was viewed as super competitive. Tougher to get into than Harvard, etc. A single, very difficult test competing with many 10,000's of dedicated students, and no EC or legacies.
It sounds to me like one of the top schools in the world.

But lets get real. The concept of a univerity, as a single seat of universal knowledge, just doesn't hold water anymore. The world is too big and diverse for any one school to do everything. Harvard has no engineering, and MIT has a tiny liberal arts program. If you could identify the world's top 50-100 schools, you can think that each of them has excellence in certain areas, but not in all fields. You pick and choose among them to advance you own particular educational goals. There quite simply is no single "best".

By Pds112 (Pds112) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 04:27 pm: Edit

I think you're right, Anotherdad, the world is too complex to have just one leading university. However, with the world globalization, the world should have clear leaders since we now are compact enough to know about the other univesities. Oxford was the world's seat for at least 700 years, it and Harvard are probably now the world seats because they are so famous. That doesn't mean that IIT and MIT can't beat up on Oxford and Harvard in Engineering or that Cambridge can't beat Oxford in English. That is just to say that the most famous universities are the leaders because they have more influence on the others. That is better for prestige and the university, but not necessarily better for the student who should choose MIT or IIT engineerning over Harvard and Oxford. I also think that the little things matter, the way I know that Harv. and Oxford are the most famous is that I am unbiased and think of it that way, and because, in "Die Another Day" the evil man was bragging about how smart he was and he said (he was from North Korea) that he studied at the great Western universities, He said "Oxford and Harvard". That lets you know that those are thought to be best, and the order tells you that Oxford is considered better than Harvard. We don't ever say "London and New York" or "Paris and London", most of the time it is "New York and London", "London and Paris", and as stupid and childish as it sounds, "She said me first so she likes me better", there probably is some truth to that. I agree that because India is sheltered away from the west a little, we don't think of it right away, IIT does belong in the top ten.

By Yaleeee (Yaleeee) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 06:32 am: Edit

very difficult, but if i had to choose,it'll be the following in no order:

harvard
princeton
yale
oxford
cornell
stanford
mit
cambridge
columbia
berkeley

By Unicorn (Unicorn) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 07:29 am: Edit

i think i someone else said something similar, but
the opinion that counts most is the EMPLOYER's.

a law firm would prbly take a kid out of yale than princeton, while an engineering firm would consider MIT better than harvard. So, the prestige of a university isn't as impt as the prestige of the course. BUT; prestige isn't that impt anyway.

(impt=important)

By Nycfan (Nycfan) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 01:17 pm: Edit

1. Oxford/Cambridge/Harvard

2. Princeton/IIT/Sorbonne/MIT/Tshinghua

3. Yale/Stanford/Caltech/Columbia/Berkeley

4. Johns Hopkins/Brown/McGill/Toronto/Chicago

5. Dartmouth/Cornell/Pennsylvania/Heidelberg

By Neut123 (Neut123) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:39 pm: Edit

Well, to know about top Universities in US, usnews.com is the best bet. But I dunno such a site for global rankings (If you know one, let me know). Havard and Yale are top Ivies but the problem is that they are famous only for Management and Arts and science resply. and so cannot be ranked overall. I'd hence put the global overall ranking as,

Top Ivies

MIT
Princeton
Oxford and Cambridge
Stanford
Johns Hopkins

Medium Ivies

Minnesota Twin cities
Texas Austin
Michigan Ann Harbor
Cal Berkeley
Brown University

Bottom Ivies

UIUC
Duke
Rice University
Cornell

Any questions???

By Hq007 (Hq007) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 01:25 am: Edit

Yes, some questions. Texas Austin.. i take it as UT austin.. great uni no doubt but since when were they IVY? what happened to columbia? I think u are being slightly harsh on Cornell. And generally speaking, i also did my A levels and SAT's, and i think ppl are over rating Oxbridge and underating the engineering unis like MIT, Stanford and IIT over the Arts and Law for reputation.... can someone rank worlds top engineering universties?? there doesnt seem to b a rank for that. Thanks...

By Canadian007 (Canadian007) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 09:54 am: Edit

Nycfan,
U mentioned UofToronto n McGill... but where are Waterloo and Queen's? :|...

By Bobhood (Bobhood) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 10:44 pm: Edit

i just happened across this discussion while the surfing the web.

first, to ask for a general and all-encompassing ranking of all world universities is a ridiculous and frankly rather immature goal. ask yourself, why do you want a ranking? a university experience cannot be quantified numerically such that it can be pitted against others of its kind in a competition. universities are not football games--they are huge entities dealing with far beyond what can be listed in a list! is this infatuation with rankings because you think you will feel better about yourself if you can go to a university that everyone around you thinks is #1? if so, then you should be questioning whether you are really a candidate for higher education at all! an education is about expanding your horizons and challenging yourself as a person...not about touting a number at someone else (or in the mirror).

this aside, i would like to give a brief background to add credence to my statements. my parents are from india, i was born in australia while they were in grad school but moved to america when i was almost 2 and have lived here ever since. i double-majored from MIT in materials science/engineering and philosophy, did my masters in public health from harvard, and am now working in a lab at uc berkeley before applying for a phd (or mdphd?) in molecular biology. i have friends who went to a host of other places (multiple people from stanford, harvard, and yale and many others at many other places). this of course does not mean i know even close to everything about all major world universities, as such, but i have much contact with several of the world's premiere universities.

most importantly, to rank a university, you must rank it for YOURSELF. what do YOU want to do? the answer to that question should be the backbone of your ranking. if you have a very clear idea of what you want to do, then it is far more important to go work with the PEOPLE who are pioneering your field than it is to go to HYP, Oxbridge, MIT, or other big names. if you like physics and want to study bose-einstein condensation, you are just as well off with eric cornell and university of colorado, boulder as you are with w. ketterle at mit. if you love poetry, caribbean poet derek walcott was on the faculty of boston university (he's emeritus now) for decades. if you want to do economics, any day the university of chicago is on par with harvard, yale, or mit. of course, it's quite possible that you don't know exactly what you want to do...in which case, you can go to dabble around in a fancy schmancy university, and no matter what you do your degree in, the common man will be in awe of you. however, people who really know what they are talking about will look far more carefully at YOU than at your degree. if you are the top student at the univ. of buffalo, you may very well go further than a mediocre student at princeton.

now, about world universities. i simply don't know anything about the level of education at east asian universities. as far as australian universities go, university of sydney, u of melbourne, and anu (this latter i only know about regarding grad school) are all excellent. other places like adelaide, monash, and unsw are good too. however, none of these universities have great clout outside of australia. people in the us, for example, simply don't know to be impressed by u of sydney, or chulalonkorn (sp?) university in thailand. most americans, even highly educated ones, don't know which are china's best! iit is a little different...where harvard boasts an undergrad admissions rate of ~11%, iit's, i think, is closer to ~2%. this automatically says something about the quality of students who are admitted!! moreover, iit students who leave india, tend to be extremely successfuly, simply because of the drive it took for them to rise out of a country of 1billion to go to a premiere university and then out of india. (the same applies for the people who get out of china to work professionally in the west, but i just don't know about their univs.) i find that the problem with iit, and education outside of america in general, is that people don't really study much outside of their own subjects. true, foreign students do tend to be a lot better at what they do than are american students. still, i think something has to be said for being well rounded. asian students in particular, are NOT well-rounded as a result of their schooled education.

as far as english universities go: no one has any doubt regarding oxbridge's excellence. as far as their distinctions go, i do not mean to be derisive, but in my experience, the general public holds oxford in higher esteem, but the educated respect cambridge more. the thing is, if you want to study in the sciences, unless you study math or theoretical physics (subjects that do not require much in the way of facilities), you are FAR better off in an american university. the simple reason for this is money. i have met many students from cambridge (most recently a bunch of undergrads participating in a new exchange program at mit), and they all complain about how tough it is to get funding for equipment, computers, and other facilities for research and teaching. when it comes to money in the schools, perhaps japan is up there, but from what i've heard, nothing beats american schools (and from among these, nothing beats mit, harvard, and stanford).

this brings us to american universities. when i was applying to college as an undergrad, i once met with professor at princeton. he told me something very important, "there are a lot of good schools in this country, but there is an elite group of them from which you get the best and most highly regarded education. the schools in that group are: harvard, yale, princeton, stanford, mit, and caltech." i tried to add some other schools (columbia? cornell? berkeley? duke?), but he said no to all of those. the reason is, those first 6 schools, according to him, attract and accept a group of students that stands above all other places in the country. the faculty at all semi-decent universities in the u.s. are excellent, but the students at the Big 6 really are one of a kind. they are the best of the best of the best of the best. sure, the 3 ivies in there (let me also interject that this thread has been misusing the term "ivy"...the ivy league was a group of universities competing in athletics against each other since early in the 1900s. those schools are: harvard, princeton, yale, brown, columbia, cornell, dartmouth, and upenn. NO other school is an IVY!!!) do take some dumb shits on legacy (can we say barbara bush!!), but the people who get in on their own merit are truly amazing. this is not to say that other universities do not have students of the same caliber--places like cornell, berkeley, columbia and even the university of oklahoma have students who got in to HYP but went elsewhere for financial/personal reasons, but at those schools are also a lot of mediocre students. The Big 6 don't admit anyone who can be dubbed "mediocre."

now of the big 6, let me narrow down further. i am not going to discuss caltech much. caltech is an excellent school, no doubt. however, maybe it's an mit prejudice, but i, personally, am totally anti-caltech. mit has it's share of social misfits, but caltech's breed of lifeless geeks just really redefines the term "having no life"...caltech undergrads are just plain, unrecoverable, anti-social dorks. mit, although it has a stratum of those people, is big enough that we had normal people too . okay, so now onto the other 5. when i chose mit as an undergrad, i had a tough call among mit, stanford, and princeton (i didn't apply to harvard and yale just b/c at the time i was anti-harvard just b/c of all the hype surrounding it, and i didn't like yale b/c i don't like new haven :P). stanford, i decided was too far. so it was between mit and princeton. in the end i picked mit, and i'm glad i did. this is not to say that princeton isn't an amazing (and also beautiful) university. the thing is, in science and engineering, stanford, mit, and harvard, are just way better than princeton and yale. this is not to say that princeton doesn't have an excellent physics department, and that yale doesn't have fantastic biology. it's just that the facilities at the 1st three, are, in general, better (there ARE MANY exceptions). i personally am really glad that i'm have an mit degree (especially because i think it's the only school that offers a B.S. in Philosophy!!!! well...they call it an S.B). my harvard degree is awesome b/c i can say i have one , but my mit degree carries a whole different clout with the professional world. this is because, mit is notoriously difficult academically, and i am not going to argue with that (it was hard as hell). harvard, in comparison, is a joke in terms of difficulty. however, the harvard students are all bright, the professors are all brilliant, so they all end up okay (i guess i didn't like harvard so much just b/c i felt like a lot of my peers were much more arrogant than they had been at mit). also, harvard sciences are really good, but anyone will tell you that their engineering SUCKS hands down. for undergrad, the best engineering schools are unequivocally mit and stanford (and for grad school, in my opinion the best places are mit, stanford, berkeley, and to some extent johns hopkins). stanford is an awesome university (it's gorgeous too!), it's got funding for everything, the faculty is great, the students are wonderful, and everyone i know who went there loved it...so yay stanford! mit is an incredible school, but a lot of people hate it (i am really glad i went there, it changed who i am, i would go back again if i had to make the choice, but i cannot say i really enjoyed my time there). so i guess, according to what i've narrowed everything down to, stanford comes out on "top," but do keep in mind how much narrowing down i did, and that any point in my commentary, we could've made different choices and ended up with a different school! it completely depends on what YOU are looking for...and to some extent what, later in your life, your employer is looking for!

before i end, i want to add a few more things. on 7/18 harvardguy made a post about stanford/cornell, berkeley, and HYP. i just wanted to add a couple things. i agree on stanford, but 1st of all, cornell is very solid all around, but for undergrad it really is the safe-school of the ivies. for grad, it's great, but it's strong engineering is not as strong as mit/stanford/berkeley, it's med school is great but not as great as harvard/hopkins/ucsf, it's pure sciences are good but not as good as HYP/stanford/mit/berkeley...moreover, harvard and yale do not have engineering "schools," but harvard FAS has a division of engineering and applied sciences and yale has all the standard engineering departments). harvardguy correctly states that berkeley doesn't have a medical school, but he neglects to mention that ucsf (a fantastic school) IS berkeley's affiliate medical school...it's technically a different univ, but people at berkeley who do their mdphd get the md from ucsf, and anyone at one school is able to take classes at the other (and park there as well!). also, i wanted to add another blurb about mit. although it is a tech school, it has everything--little known is how good it's humanities and social sciences are...econ, poli sci, and linguistics and philosophy are all among the country's best, as are architecture and urban planning. the rest of the humanities have really good faculty, but because they don't have grad programs (the other ones i mentioned do), there isn't all that much scope for students to become involved in humanities research. however, any mit student can cross-register at harvard or wellesley at any point during his/her academic career to take ANY class at those schools that are not available at mit. also, mit does not have a med school, but it has arguably, the most prestigious MDPhD program in the country...the harvard-mit HST (health sciences and technology) program. you can get the phd portion from either mit or harvard (a whole range of mit departments such as eE, mechE, chemE, matsci, bio chem, phys, and bioE are involved with HST) and harvard gives you the md.

now, i'm really almost done! one more bit though...i said that the premiere places are great if you don't know what you want to do just b/c no matter what you study, the degree has clout. however, depending on who you are, they may be the WORST place for you to go. you may get totally lost (they are not huge schools, but they are big), and totally intimidated by the competitiveness of your fellow classmates. thus, don't forget the small liberal arts schools like williams, amherst, swarthmore, and pomona (and wellesley if you're a woman) and small engineering schools (harvey mudd and cooper union) which are really really good schools, but just very small and offer great personal attention and small class sizes to the students--the only caveat is that they don't have grad programs, and outside of the US, they are not necessarily very big name...

also, there are some really wonderful state schools out there that offer fantastic educations at a fraction of the price of private universities: uc berkeley (berkeley is a truly awesome place!), ucla, uc san diego, u of virginia, unc chapel hill, u of illinois urbana-champagne, u michigan ann arbor, u wisconsin madison...and the list goes on...

also, if you want to study music/performing arts, don't go to the standard big name universities...yale has a really good music school, but people at the truly premiere music schools scoff at yale. if you want to do music, check out the juilliard school in nyc and the curtis institute in philly (they redefine elite...), also the cleveland school of music, new england conservatory, and even the eastman school of music in rochester are excellent. in music, europe come back with flair: the royal conservatory, the paris conservatory, berlin, vienna, and st. petersburg...and in music, yes, the name DOES count!

in conclusion, go where YOU think is the best place for you--in the end, it will be better for your development, and it will make you a more desirable candidate for jobs/grad school/life at large because you will be able to flourish in your own medium! ...and remember, ranking is STUPID!!!! if EVER you see a full ranking of worldwide universities, KNOW that it IS flawed, meaningless, prejudiced, and WRONG. i hope i've been able to help ...

By Krishna (Krishna) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 02:17 pm: Edit

I happened to across this topic while surfing the net.
I believe that universities/colleges should be ranked in individual streams(engineering,arts..etc).
I rank MIT/IIT as best in engineering stream.Westerners may not have any idea about IIT because it is in India but it is the fact that it is more difficult to get into IIT than into
Harvard/Cornel/...
Any comments..

By Wlaf (Wlaf) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Ranking of top 500 universities in the world (completed in 2003):

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ranking.htm

Top 10:
1. Harvard
2. Stanford
3. Caltech
4. Berkeley
5. Cambridge
6. MIT
7. Princeton
8. Yale
9. Oxford
10. Columbia

By Carohall (Carohall) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 01:42 am: Edit

univ. of cambridge
heidelberg
univ. of toronto
sorbonne
oxford univ.
columbia univ.
univ. of pennsylvania
univ. college london
uc berkeley
univ. of chicago

By Geosurf (Geosurf) on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Hey guys, I'm french and I think I can give you an explanation to this quotation given by londoner and pds 112: "so bloody amazing, only a select few Harvard students could have gotten into them." I'm pretty convinced that you can find great schools in france (because in france the best universities are to find among our " engeneering schools"...it's so called). It's commonly admitted, in france, that the 5 best in science (physic, chemistry and math), if you want more i can give you more...(intl class one are the latter), are: 1: polytechnique school (the best, without doubt)
2: "ecole normale supérieur" of paris
3: ecole centrale of paris

in biological and earth science, there is just one intl class uni, the ecole normale sup. of paris and the one of lyon

For those who want to study languages and philosophy, literature, I saw that you spoke about la "sorbonne"...it's true, it's a great university in france (paris 4, not pris 1...), in the literary studies...but not the best one...: the best one is, always..., the école normale supérieur of paris...I personnally think this latter (école normale sup.) is the best in france with ecole polytechnique.

The selection is VERY strict to enter those schools, and it's true that few students of world's best uni could enter the "ecole polytechnique" for example... They are unknown, that's why nobody knows the real level of the studies, but you can believe me, "e polytech" could head world's top uni: I would say: (in science)
1) Cambridge
2) Harvard
3) Oxford
4) princeton
5) ecole polytechnique (france)
6)....stanford, mit, caltech, ecole normale sup. (france)
and so on...I guess austr. nat? un is one of the best too, don't you?

I have a question, what do you know about exeter in england, I heard about it as one of the best in the world...I didn't know this school...

matthieu (student in preparatory school, will apply to the school that I described you: polytech, normale...)

By Akantonie (Akantonie) on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 03:42 pm: Edit

Any good universities in US, UK or France to do PhD?

By Rocking (Rocking) on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 04:13 am: Edit

1.univeristy of toronto, canada
2.humboldt university zu berlin, germany
3.oxford university, UK

By Rocking (Rocking) on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 04:16 am: Edit

1.univeristy of toronto, canada
2.humboldt university zu berlin, germany
3.oxford university, UK

By Oxon (Oxon) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 06:43 pm: Edit

As a student of both the London School of Economics (BA) and Oxford (M.Phil) I feel I am well positioned to say in the UK at least which are the world's best universities. It is without doubt an all UK/US affair, dominated by the well endowed US institutions.

1.Harvard
2.Oxford
3.Cambridge
4.Princeton
5.Stanford
6.MIT
7.Yale
8.Chicago
9.LSE
10.Columbia

By Anil (Anil) on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 11:33 am: Edit

Here is my list of world's best Universities (in sciences: Chemistry, Physics, and math):

Princeton
Harvard
MIT
Oxford
Cambridge
Stanford
Tokyo Univ
Korea Advanced Inst. of Science & Tech
Indian Institue Of technology
Columbia
*As you know it is extremly hard to compare between these universities. OSme may vary based on opinion.

Top 10 in Asia (according to Asia Week magazine):

1 Korea Advanced Inst. of Science & Tech
2 Pohang University of Science & Tech. (South Korea)
3 Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay
4 Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi
5 Indian Institute of Technology, Madras
6 Tokyo Institute of Technology
7 Indian Institute of Technology, Kanpur
8 Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur
9 Nanyang Technological University (Singapore)
10 Taiwan University of Science & Tech*

http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/universities2000/scitech/sci.overall.html

Pds112 : As you asked before what about IIT? IIT today stands to be world class universities in Aero Space engineering, Chemistry, physics, math, Information Technology and more. ITT fails to be on top 5 list because of lack of financial support. Attending IIT is cheap: for indian resident total cost of attending IIT for one year is: $75/year tuition + some $1000/year (room & boarding, food, book and other fees) = $1100/year. Often poor people get away with just paying some $100 per year. Getting into it is very very very hard. They don't care about your performance in school or college as long as you earn a degree. FOr bachelors you need to get high score on their JEE (join entrance examination). It's very very hard test. They expect you to know Diff equations (+all three levels of calculus done), organic chem, and avanced physics by the time you graduate of 12 grade. In USA average students have barely heard of calculus. International fee is $6500/ year. It's funded by the government of India but grants for research aren't that great compared to Harvard or princeton.

By Anil (Anil) on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 12:08 pm: Edit

BTW IIT's acceptency rate is 0.13% (1 out of every 750 testakers). only 2000 get accepted out of 1.5 million test takers

By Marley (Marley) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 06:02 pm: Edit

* Before I begin – this is not in any way a critique of anyone’s posts. It is simply my opinion. *

A list like this is bound to hold a bias. In other words, Americans want to see the top American schools on the list, Brits want the top British schools on the list, and so on. Fact of the matter is that different Universities are regarded in higher esteem in different areas of the world then others. Humans have a tendency to generalizing these matters into ridiculous top ten lists such as some that I have read above.

Example: If you want a job in the France, a top French school would be held in higher esteem then any other, regardless of how many "top scholars" are teaching at the school. This is a matter of local and national pride, an understanding of the University due to its proximity, and the fact that the students were taught in the native language of the.

I also noticed that many posts have mentioned the number of noble lariats that a school employs. The noble prize is an over-inflated way of judging a person's intelligence, and much more importantly, their ability to convey this intelligence VIA teaching. Intelligence does not constitute an ability to teach, and could very well be seen as hindering a student’s ability to learn the material.

Basically, I say relax, enjoy life, and stop worrying whether your university makes the list. You’ll find solace in life either way.

By Africaccc (Africaccc) on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 11:30 am: Edit

Do some research before paying top $ in the UK. Reputation not enough!
I for one am NOT applying to do Political Science or the Social Sciences in Cambridge after reading what the QAA says. This is the UK government's own quality watchdog for unversities - hardly biased!
http://www.qaa.ac.uk/revreps/subjre...01_textonly.htm

Several colleges got top marks... but not Cambridge because of bad management and bad coordination on the SPS Social and Political Sciences Courses course. Confirmed by Cambridge itself in its newspaper:
SPS Tripos about to "CRACK" http://www.varsity.cam.ac.uk/8025694E0073CFEB/Pages/2712000_Morechaosin.html
“SPSed off!”
http://www.varsity.cam.ac.uk/802569...RIPOSABOUT.html
And the QAA lists other Universities getting straight As (bottom of page, like Oxford, King's College London, Warwick, York, Nottingham. Anyone else got good recommendations, views????

This QAA report destroys my illusions. Just goes to show you, buyers beware! Reputations can change!
I read in my econ history that Technische Universität in Charlottenburg Berlin used to be considered the best University in the world (at the turn of the century). Not so any more!

By Prabhashini (Prabhashini) on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 02:14 am: Edit

I would like to know what are the Best Medical Universities in the World that offers an Undergraduate course of Medicine (MBBS). This means USA and Canada cannot be Included. I would also like to the those Best outside UK too.

By Oxfordboundboy (Oxfordboundboy) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Check out this ranking:

Some top 5 american universities are not even top 20 in a world ranking scheme. Check this out:

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ranking.htm

In particular, DUKE, which is ranked by USNEWS at #6 or so, is ranked only #32 in the world.

By Parisienne (Parisienne) on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 06:18 pm: Edit

hello there!
to all those who heard there were "amazing universities" in france but don't really known what they are - here are a few details on the french higher education system, quite difficult to understand.
all univerities in france are "free" (actually you pay around 200 euros/year) and public, and the only conditions to get in is to have passed the "baccalaureat" and have subscribed in time (that is during the last year of secondary education) and this also works for Paris I (sorbonne) or Paris IV (sorbonne-nouvelle). as a consequence, the first 2 or 3 years, even the sorbonne is full of bright and not so bright students and the classes are not held in the historical buildings in central paris but in shoddy huge modern buildings.
now france has an extremely elistist higher edu system with the "grandes Ecoles", the best being the Ecoles normales Superieures (ENS, there are 4 in France and they excell in all subjects) and the Ecole Polytechnique ("engeneering" school) they are also public, and actually students of these schools are paid around 1300 euros/month by the french state to enjoy their studies! to be part of the happy few, the first stage is to be accepted in a "classe preparatoire" after the bac (some ask for your grades in the last 10y!) the second stage is to be accepted in the second year of the classe prepa (though lots of students abandon and go to university because the rate of work in that system is crazy and it is psychologically quite harsh) and at the end of the second year you take a contest... only 5% of the crazy students who were the best in highschool and have worked night and day for 2 or 3 years are accepted in those schools - this is what the french mean by elitist!
then there are multiple other grandes ecoles, some private and some public (all the other "ecoles d'ingenieur", the schools of economics such as HEC...)
now the 95% bright students who did not enter the top grandes ecoles, either go to the second range ones or to excellent universities such as la sorbonne (so the real game starts in post grad edu there and the historical buildings are for post grads only).
hope this helped you understand what the "amazing universities" are and when to apply to the sorbonne! students exchanges exist between the ENS and top UK/US universities; the foreign students spend only one year at the ENS and they don't get the cash, but on the other hand they don't need to sign a contract with the french state committing them to be civil servants for 10y!
any recommendations on London universities in literary fields?
and thank you africaccc for the link - I definitely agree with you on not trusting reputations and enquiring about what we precisely want to do at the uni!

By Mag (Mag) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 07:30 pm: Edit

The only way I see to compare universities around the world especially those that are in different countries and have varied teaching methods and emphasis is to measure the impact of a university on human history. A university is above all an institution to further human understanding of the world we live in. The globally acknowledged measure of impact in the world and particularly in the field of furthering human understanding are the Nobel prizes. Therefore those universities which can claim the most nobel prizes are those that have best succeeded in the mission shared by all universities. Using such a method of comparison it is without doubt that the University of Cambridge is by far the most influential university in the world and in the course of human history. Therefore the standings would look like this:

Cambridge (76)
Chicago (72)
Columbia (60)
Harvard (40)
MIT (36)
Princeton (30)
Humboldt, Berlin (29)
Cornell (28)
Oxford (28)

By Beyondivy (Beyondivy) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 11:34 pm: Edit

Prestige is very tough metric to measure ... I really like the Nobel metric. But there again, you can see the noise in the metric (i.e. it is hard to argue that Humboldt has more global prestige than Yale.

As a scientist, I would sooner respect an IIT (India Inst. of Tech) or Caltech grad than a Columbia grad. Max Planck in Germany, National Taiwan, Tokyo Univ., Tech Univ - Munich are EXCELLENT places that make admissions at Oxford look easy.

All of the above notwithstanding, here's my PRESTIGE list ... A very unscientific one at that.

1) Oxford
2) Cambridge
3) Harvard
4) Yale
5) Princeton
6) MIT
7) Stanford
8) London School of Economics
9) Sorbonne
10) Beijing University

Can't think of a good #9 that should be in the same prestige league as the above.

By Beyondivy (Beyondivy) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 11:58 pm: Edit

Hg07 ....

Here's my list of the world's best engineering schools [not necessarily in basic science] that have Ph.D. programs... My sense is that the U.S. dominates the top of the list primarily for their grad research capabilities and capacities ...

1) MIT/Caltech (Best at being best)
3) Cornell/Stanford/Berkeley (A+ Research in everything)
6) Russian Academy of Sci. / Chinese Academy of Sci.
7) IIT (India) (Tops Brain Horsepower in the world)
8) National Taiwan
9) Imperial College (UK)
10) Tech Univ. (Germany)
11) Technion (Isreal)

By Kyoots (Kyoots) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 12:56 pm: Edit

Just wanted to say Marley's right. Most pple do wanna see their own countries as the top in the world and even better if its the one u studying in. I just wanted to check the rankings of the top 50 unis.. and i figure i'll have to keep checking!

By 22157 (22157) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 07:35 am: Edit

To judge this properly you need to allow for the size of a university, its age, and whether or not it is specialist. You cannot easily compare specialist and generalist institutions, and small versus large. I would like to make a case for LSE, which certainly should be in any world top 10, and has far better claims than Cornell or Chapel Hill(!). Criteria: Nobel Prizes, production of prime ministers and presidents, academic influence, citation indexes,per capita mentions of alumni in Who's Who internet searches for frequency of name mention and recognition. A

And to be really fair you have to factor in size and specialisation, ie LSE has 13 Nobels, which is more impressive than Yale which has 18, because LSE for most of its history has been smaller and is single faculty (it can only really win prizes for economics- the other social sciences it teaches are not eligible for Nobels-Nobels are mainly for natural sciences). Also LSE is a much newer institution and has had less time to get going (don't get me wrong, I recognise that Yale is better known internationally, in general).

But generally international comparisons are only really useful if they are comparing like with like, and the fact that this will be ignored by the inevitable compilers of these tables, which will spawn in the next few years, will lead to some crazy results.

By Hamletc (Hamletc) on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 05:38 pm: Edit

Nobel prizes tell something about past.
If Cambridge or Oxford have got a lot of Nobels before 1970 it does not tell anything about their current level. If we look Nobels during 90's it is quite clear that top schools are in USA. They have so much money to buy most top researcher all around world.

Level of undegraduate program differs quite often level of graduate program.

And many very talented students do undergraduate degree in their own country and then do Ph.D. in USA.
For example in economics about 50 % of top researchers have done undergraduate degree in USA, but almost 90% of top researchers have done their Ph.D. in USA. :
(http://student.ulb.ac.be/~tcoupe/updaterevealedperformances.pdf page 95)
Cambridge used to be the best econ dept in the world. I don’t think that it is among top 20 departments any more.

I am from Finland. There is not Nobel in Mathematics but Fields Medal. One Finn got that medal long time ago (Lars Ahlfors). Most people in Finland have not ever heard anything about him. Mainly because he became professor of mathematics in Harvard and lived rest of his life in USA. Quite usual story now days.

By Shahg (Shahg) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 01:53 pm: Edit

hey well it really took me more than 2 hrs to go through all the posts......just to get some better idea y not any one among u do me a favour and just make a list of top 10 universities or college for engr and another one for medics. Separately .... I hope this will sove most of the confusion

thanx

By El_Diablo (El_Diablo) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 05:05 am: Edit

Hey there! I am just applying to universities both in the UK and the US and thus I have done a ton of research. Firstly, I would like to say that, IN MY OPINION, US unis are generally far better for postgraduate work than the UK. However, when the element of prestige is considered, Oxford and Cambrdige definitely take the cake in the world. In Sri Lanka (I'm there) only the elite private school go-ers know of an ivy league but every Sri Lankan, even the ones who do not speak English, know Oxford and Cambridge. However, Oxford is always mentioned first. In the UK however, both go neck and neck and it doesnt matter really where you go, but usually arts students prefer Oxford, and Science students definitely opt for Cambridge. Also it is interesting to note that Cambrdige has been coming in 1st overall in the UK for the past 8 years, with last year seeing Oxford falling to an appalling 3rd. Oxford is first this year, but a careful analysis sees that it is first because it had far more funds available to students, and in fact Cambrdige was far better in the research ratings, excellence in teaching, graduation employment ratings and so forth.

However, I feel personally a rankings of world universities is a frivolous one in that it is like comparing apples to oranges - universities in different countries have distinct characteristics and strengths.

If indeed I had to make ranking of the top five universities, which is naturally opiniated but not NECESSARILY RANKED IN THE ORDER GIVEN BELOW:

Harvard
Cambridge
Princeton
Oxford
Stanford

Also it is interesting to note that American universities have far more money for research and thus it is one of the major reasons you are likely to find almost all the top places in the rankings to US universities

By Celerystalksme (Celerystalksme) on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 06:13 pm: Edit

ok...i only read the first dozen posts...but THOSE ARE SOME •••••• UP LISTS!!!!

how can you people even THINK to put IIT or Australian National in the top 10?!?!?! IIT isn't even the top technology school in asia!

Korea Advanced Inst. of Science & Tech AND Pohang University of Science & Tech. are regarded as THE top science and technology schools in ALL of asia!

And Australian National?!?!?! Gimme a break! For a liberal arts education, Kyoto University, Tohoku University, University of Hong Kong, and Seoul National University are ALL more highly regarded than Australian National!

also...i read that a poster believes most foreign countries send their best and brightst to the states? this is not true of asia. most of the koreans and japanese (and many indian and chinese) that come to the US specifically for an education at middle school age or later are the dumbest of the dumb that nation has to offer. they come here because they know they can't get into seoul national, yonsei, hong kong, tohuko, kyoto, ect. and they KNOW they'll come to the US and look like a science/math GENIUS compared to the dumb americans! all they have to worry about is brushing up on their english and voila...they'll get a top US education.

By Celerystalksme (Celerystalksme) on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 06:21 pm: Edit

just a couple more things i saw wrong in additional posts i've read so far...

1) university of michigan - ann arbor does NOT "offer a fantastic education at a fraction of the price of private universities." the out-of-state tuition for uofm rivals those of some of the most expensive privates. it's only a good deal for the in-staters (and even then it's not as cheap as other publics).

2) the ivy league is a specific set of schools: brown, columbia, cornell, dartmouth, harvard, penn, princeton, and yale. THAT'S IT! mit, hopkins, duke, ect ect ect ARE NOT ivy league schools. sure, they're good schools...some are downright fantastic...but they're not part of the ivy league.

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 03:56 am: Edit

dumbest of the dumb

So they're the future manual labourers of Japan and Korea? Get real.

By Celerystalksme (Celerystalksme) on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 09:03 am: Edit

Arealtexan,

I can only speak from my own personal experience. I am asian...and through the course of my life, I have known literally hundreds of asian immigrant students. Yes, some of them did immigrate here because of their fathers career...yes, some of them did come here because they believed US offered a better life...

BUT...the VAST majority of asian immigrant families I've known (particularly south korean and japanese) came to the US because their child was doing poorly in school.

You see...it has gotten better over the past decade or so...but even now, if you don't do well on the college entrance exams, if you don't get into seoul national or yonsei...then it's only a SLIGHT exaggeration to say that individual is bound for blue collar labor.

So it is a VERY common practice to send a struggling child to the US. Usually, you hold out hope they can succeed until around junior high. If the child is falling behind his classmates, off to the US.

This practice of sending stupid koreans/japanese to the US has gotten to the point where the parents don't even come along. Many families send their 15 year old child to the US to live with friends or other family...and in a couple cases I've known, to live by themself.

And to man, all these korean/japanese rejects do well enough in the states to attend one of the top 25 US schools (as reported in US&News and World Report).

The intelligent koreans/japanese DO eventually find their way to the US though. A VERY VERY large percentage of the bright koreans/japanese finish their bachelors in seoul national, tohuko, kyoto,and yonsei...BUT for GRADUATE school? A LOT of them come to the states for grad school.

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Let's take Japan (one of your two examples of a country that dumps its effluent straight into the top tier of western education) as an example. About 49% of the population there advances to university from upper secondary school. So that leaves 51% who do not.

Now you assert that it is only a slight exagerration to suggest that they are heading for blue collar labour. Rather than a little teensy-weensie untruth, I'd say that is a pretty giant porky-pie. A quick look at the break down of the Japanese labour force will tell you that it is. This 51% who do not go to university are more likely to end up in service industries, the financial sector, etc. etc. than in primary industry. In fact, workers in those areas outnumber manual labourers by a ratio of 1.3:1 (in Japan).

Your argument is also based on the crypto-racist fairytale that whiteys are so unbearably stupid and that American education is so bad that the bottom 51% of scholastic achievers in Japan can fit into the top couple of percentiles of American students.

By Celerystalksme (Celerystalksme) on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 01:38 pm: Edit

like i said, i'm going on personal experience...i'm not so interested in the subject as to go and research numbers. if my perception is wrong, well...then it's wrong. it really doesn't matter too much to me one way or the other...

most of the immigrants i know from korea/japan were struggling students that came to the states and thrived. the families we know back in korea who's children did poorly and were not able to to gain admittance into seoul national or yonsei...they're all blue collar (with a few skill-less, hourly, white collar office types).

also, i never said anything about "whitey"...i said "dumb americans"...i've been in the US since the age of 4...i'm an american citizen...and i consider myself an american. and i gotta say...we're as dumb as rocks over here!

again, i have no numbers...just personal experience. i believe our elite here in america are as bright or brighter than anyone in the world. but on average? -- Edited--
***Celery,
Watch your mouth. The only reason that you're not banned as of now is that this was caught after you were given a warning on a later post. If you can't discern unacceptable words for this board then you will not be allowed to post here.
Moderator: DoveofPeace ****

n math and science. korean math flunkies come over here and score 700 on the math SAT...i knew a kid from poland in my calc class...he was a below average student in his country...he got high score on every exam.

i've discussed this with some of my professors at both university of michigan and harvard...most of them are caucasian americans...and they'll readily admit that in their experience, asian and european immigrants, on average, are FAR more prepared than americans in the fields of math and science.

as for numbers...to be quite honest, i think i'd be more willing to believe my personal experience and the experiences of profs at world renowned institiions rather than some stats gathered with who knows what kind of bias.

the standards of achievement in the US are WAY too low, IMO. the SAT is a joke. SATII joke. ACT joke. state admistered exams like MEAP joke.

i'm sorry...but when i dozens and dozens of korean immigrants, that either failed out of school or did very poorly, come to the US to be at the head of their math and science classes...i think that says something...

we're dumb...

i'm not trying to paint this as a race thing. it's a social thing. because koreans that were raised here? on average, they're not as well off as their immigrant counterparts in math and science...

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 02:42 am: Edit

we're dumb...

I'm not American. ;)

Anyway, fair enough. I still dispute that "below average" students come and score extremely highly. They are probably "below average" in classes of brighter students in their countries, and your perception of average is skewed a little bit.

By Ghanaboy (Ghanaboy) on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 08:22 am: Edit

Isn't it such a surprise that these superbrains don't stay back home in Asia and build influential universities that dictate the pace of research and teaching?

Anyway, folks, let's get serious; higher education is all about material resources these days -it's a capital intensive undertaking and only the richest of institutions can deliver education of the highest quality. Harvard has an endowment of... is it 18 billion dollars? Compared with Cambridge's 3.9 or so billion. Her library holdings total 14 billion as compared to 4 billion for Oxford -frankly, there is no competition, is there?

And this hullabaloo about math and science. Asians may exhibit strong aptitudes for those two fields, but I daresay the world is shaped just as much by politicians, businesspeople/administrators and creative artistic geniuses just as much as it is shaped by scientists/engineers. To rely on math and science as the only true measure of intelligence is to go ridiculously astray. (So please drop IIT and Yonsei from the top ten, will you)

By Cbdix (Cbdix) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:51 am: Edit

Hello,
Your discussion is really very interesting. I'm a Brit who took her undergrad. at an "Ivy League" in the UK, transferred through an exchange programme for one semester at Princeton, and am now working at the University of Melbourne in Australia! Phew.
Having studied at 2 top universities in the UK and US, I feel that I have a valid opinion.
In many ways, Princeton was a fantastically impressive place to study and,MY GOD, the students are dedicated and heart-stoppingly knowledgeable in their chosen fields. Having said that, the comparative education that I received whilst at university in England was far more rigorous,profound,intellectually challenging and stimulating.
On the subject of Australian Universities.....the US and the UK's top universities can rest assured that their positions of excellence at the pinnacle of the world's academic institutions is safe and, from what I have seen of the Australian academic system so far, will remain so for the forseeable future.

By Bryanchuk (Bryanchuk) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 09:35 am: Edit

General rankings BY IMPRESSION
#1. A+ schools
Oxford/ Cambridge(Oxbridge "Coalition")& Princeton/ Yale/ Harvard ("The Big Three"--like Clemenceau/ Wilson/ David Lloyd George
"Triumvirate" in Versailles 1919 or Roosevelt/ Stalin/ Churchill "Triumvirate" in Tehran 1943 & Yalta 1945)
#2. A schools
America: U.C. Berkeley, Columbia, Stanford, Duke, Brown, Cornell, U Penn, Dartsmouth, MIT, Cal Tech, U of Michagan Ann Arbor, John Hopskins,
U of Notre Dame, Rice University, Williams College, Georgetown University
Britain: Imperial College, LSE, U of
Manchester, U of Nottingham.....
Europe: U of Stockholm at Sweden #3. A- schools
America: UCLA, U of Texas, Austin, U of North Carolina, Chapal Hills, UCSD, UCSB, UCIrvine, U.C San Francisco, U of Wisconsin, Madison, UC Davis,
U of Chicago, UIUC, U of Virginia, Wake Forest U.
Britain: King's College, London, Queen Mary,
Warwick, York, Leeds, Bristol....
Europe: Lund University in Sweden,
U of Munich in Germany
U of Paris in France,
Asia : Beijing University in China
Australia: I don't know.....


INDISPENSABLE Top 10 if you really wanna rank
1. Oxford (UK)
2. Princeton, Harvard, Yale (US)
5. Cambridge (UK)
6. Stanford, Berkeley, Columbia (US)
9. Duke (US)
10. Brown (US)

Harvard Grad: TR, FDR, JFK, Bush, Dr Ho, Kissinger, Professor Leung, the Chinese writer & translator (of Shakespeare)
Yale Grad: Bill and Hillary Clinton (Law School),
George W. Bush (undergrad), Judie Foster, Star.
Oxford Grad: Bill Clinton (M.A in Economics), Chris Patten, the former Governor of Hong Kong (1992-1997), my Sociology Professor Andrew Scull
Cambridge Grad: Lee-Kuan-Yew, founder of Singapore. Aung San Suu Kyi of Burma. Gandhi of India. Issac Newton (Trinity College). Darwin.
Columbia/ Cornell: Hu Shih of China. Ex-President of Taiwan Lee-teng-hui, my friend Man-Chung Law.

By Woming20 (Woming20) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 04:47 am: Edit

Hoho here comes a undergrad from Australian National University~

wow man so many interesting notes on this forum about Harvard, Oxforf, Cambridge and etc~

In fact they are all good Unis, depends on different selection man. Most importantly, you have to be on the campus to experience everything yourself then you can make the judgement/comments about each Uni so it's fair and balanced.

Throw those stat/ranking away. You don't live with your life forever with those rankings and etc. BE YOURSELF. Do what's good for you and makes you happy and achieve the goal that you want to reach that makes your life worthwhile and valuable.(to others too)

I personally stayed in Taiwan for elementary school, went to Melbourne/HK/Taipei American School for junior high and high school and now I am in ANU for my undergrad. The only difference I see (though I am not comparing them in the college(Uni) level since I am not in UK or US for college(Uni)) is whether I really grow up or not with the places and institutions that I stayed. It is possible you might be well advanced than many undergrad while you were in high school (like I am just trashing my tutor now for Asian Studies). Don't set yourself into the dilemma that undergrad or postgrad are all things you have to rely on later in life.

Education does not stop in bachelor nor PhD.

Try to self-educate yourself first, ask yourself what you want, have self-awareness on what you are good at- then goes to those Uni thing.

Or else it's pretty much like a puppet that you are just following the social system in modern day and not generating anything at all from yourself to contribute to this world.

Just do what you like man. Be a leader in your field, which means you are capable enough to lead others rather than just the idea to be the ruler. Don't worry be happy and enjoy an intellectual life.

By the way, ANU is a very good Uni from my own experience, the campus is HUGE for me. The staffs in ANU are the best in Australia according to their degrees in their own working field. But I have sensed that bachelor students in ANU don't work hard at all. It's a warning to ANU, anyway not my business. The entry score to ANU is normal, about 80 out of 100 compare with Sydney U or UNSW or Melbourne U or Monash U that have 99 or above for many disciplines.

ANU is famous b/c of it's research since it was established as a research institute till 1947 that the commonwealth government realizes that Australia needs a national university. ANU has a high prestige on the science/Asian Studies/law program. 4 (?) people got the Nobel Prize in ANU for science.(research school) It's law program is very strong, you can do an exchange to most of the European Uni and all University of California system in the US in summer(Australian season). The year in asia program in the Bachelor of Asian Studies degree in ANU gurantees you - that you have to get credit average for all your subjects(and sponsors you fully both by ANU or hosting country or hosting institution) to most of the famous Unis in Asia including Seoul National U, Kyoto U, National Taiwan U, Waseda U etc.ANU is one of the very few Unis in the world that has student exchange program with Oxford and Cambridge Uni in the UK. It has a student exchange program with Pen U/ U of Texas and Colorado U (all campuses) in the US.

Canberra is the city that hosts ANU. Canberra is small but very easy to get well with. The transportation in Canberra is pretty bad (only bus). Also, you might encounter one or two weirdos in Canberra since Cnaberra (although it is the nation's capital) is pretty much like an inner country town anyway. Not many business activities here compare with Sydney or Melbourne. So if you are an outgoing person, maybe ANU is a bad place for you or vice versa. The living expense in Canberra is cheap, I don't have that much money with me now so it's good for me.

Those are just little notes of my actual experience in ANU. What's yours?

By Bijan (Bijan) on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 03:07 am: Edit

Hey guys....... I was wondering what u guys make of University of St Andrews in Scotland. I heard about it several times lately. Any ideas?

cheers!

By Happeepanda (Happeepanda) on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 10:33 pm: Edit

what about Hong Kong University!?!?!?

By Auginator (Auginator) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 03:19 am: Edit

To be very honest, the bottom line is that besides the UK, any other national school in our present time cannot even compete with the top American universities. Cambridge is now rated better than oxford by many professors, and Harvard is now considered the best university in the world. If I were to rank the top schools, based on undergrad, graduate (very important factor), research, rescources, number of majors and classes, faculty, reputation, things to do, etc... Here's how it would look...(Remember, this is my simple opinion).

1. Harvard
2. Stanford
3. MIT/Caltech
4. Yale/Princeton
5. Berkeley
6. Cambridge
7. Upenn/Columbia/Oxford
8. Northwestern/UCLA/WUSL
9. Dartmouth/Duke
10.Cornell/Brown

By Pacifist (Pacifist) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:59 am: Edit

why are you all trying to rank world universities? this is the problem of our generation. we are trying to rank everything. before people tried to rank einstein and stephen hawking or the other scientists.
I am from turkey and we have more than 80 universities. for us there are some very prestigious universities which are very tough to enter with the national exam,however you may not know any of them( such as metu,bosphorus,itu,bilkent) for the indians iit is the best for tech and science, for israelis technion may be the best.
they are all different type of universities. are you trying to rank cats and dogs together. this is the same to rank american and european universities. but if you have a phd from the best universities of the us you can find a job in europe or the opposite is also possible.
individuals are important which means you not the universities

By Ziyanlan (Ziyanlan) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 10:50 pm: Edit

To be frank, I don't think OX is CAM's counterpart.